Admitting You're a Sinner

[The Grand Nudger]

It's 390 you're looking for. The passage which directly follows the ones you just quoted. It leaves no room for some "tendency to sin" re-interpretation of original sin. They mean adam and the whole bit, literally, in real history.

[The Valkyrie]

Your interpretation of original sin is Biblical, but the Catholic church does not have that view, even though you are a Catholic.

Uh ok

Yeah, Banned is REALLY good at telling everyone else what we think.

[The Grand Nudger]

In this case he's absolutely right. She possesses a heterodox interpretation of something officially settled in catholic doctrine, but doesn't realize it....

-and because of this presents it as acceptable catholic doctrine..thus misrepresenting her own faith.

[vulcanlogician]

Broken clock?

[The Grand Nudger]

I think it's an interesting divide.  Here's catholic answers, on original sin.

-it's worth reading

On this account, several recent Protestants have thus modified the Pelagian explanation: "Even without being aware of it all men imitate Adam inasmuch as they merit death as the punishment of their own sins just as Adam merited it as the punishment for his sin." This is going farther and farther from the text of St. Paul. Adam would be no more than the term of a comparison, he would no longer have any influence or causality as regards original sin or death. Moreover, the Apostle did not affirm that all men, in imitation of Adam, are mortal on account of their actual sins; since children who die before coming to the use of reason have never committed such sins; but he expressly affirms the contrary in the fourteenth verse: "But death reigned", not only over those who imitated Adam, but "even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam." Adam's sin, therefore, is the sole cause of death for the entire human race. Moreover, we can discern no natural connection between any sin and death. In order that a determined sin entail death there is need of a positive law, but before the Law of Moses there was no positive law of God appointing death as a punishment except the law given to Adam (Gen., ii, 17). It is, therefore, his disobedience only that could have merited and brought it into the world (Rom., v, 13, 14). These Protestant writers lay much stress on the last words of the twelfth verse. We know that several of the Latin Fathers understood the words, "in whom all have sinned", to mean, all have sinned in Adam. This interpretation would be an extra proof of the thesis of original sin, but it is not necessary. Modern exegesis, as well as the Greek Fathers, prefers to translate "and so death passed upon all men because all have sinned". We accept this second translation which shows us death as an effect of sin. But of what sin? "The personal sins of each one", answer our adversaries, "this is the natural sense of the words `all have sinned.' "It would be the natural sense if the context was not absolutely opposed to it. The words "all have sinned" of the twelfth verse, which are obscure on account of their brevity, are thus developed in the nineteenth verse: "for as by the disobedience of one man many were made sinners". There is no question here of personal sins, differing in species and number, committed by each one during his life, but of one first sin which was enough to transmit equally to all men a state of sin and the title of sinners. Similarly in the twelfth verse the words "All have sinned" must mean, "all have participated in the sin of Adam", "all have contracted its stain". This interpretation too removes the seeming contradiction between the twelfth verse, "all have sinned", and the fourteenth, "who have not sinned", for in the former there is question of original sin, in the latter of personal sin. Those who say that in both cases there is question of personal sin are unable to reconcile these two verses.

https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/original-sin

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Broken clock?

No...actually, protestant headhunters are very well aware of this trend in lapsing catholics and they use it to poach them from the pews with missionary effort. It works. I think banned probably knows about the catholic position on original sin very well. He can probably articulate his cults position on the matter (and the catholics purportedly "unbiblical" position...though obviously they can point to a verse in magic book..there are plenty of verses for any occasion) very well, as well.

They're both wrong, but it creates a compelling internal logic when one person can say.."see..you only -thought- you believed in religion x, you actually believe in my religion, religion y - you've known the real good word all along!" Services are on saturday. People who express heterodox interpretations of their sects dogma are, by virtue of doing so..signalling a meaningful disasstifaction with their faith that serves as a signal to others looking to manage their own flocks numbers.

[vulcanlogician]

Admitting you're a sinner is generally only a problem for narcissists.

They hate to think that they are prone to make mistakes, which they make more often than anyone else.

The comments on this thread suggest that Atheism is the perfect religion for narcissists.

IDK, Banned, dedicated narcissists might prefer Christianity. After all, denying one's own faults is only part of narcissism. The real fun is in pointing out faults in others while you do so.

[Catholic_Lady]

Uh ok

Yeah, Banned is REALLY good at telling everyone else what we think.

I see that. Him and several others.

[vulcanlogician]

-it's worth reading

Wow.

...but he expressly affirms the contrary in the fourteenth verse: "But death reigned", not only over those who imitated Adam, but "even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam." Adam's sin, therefore, is the sole cause of death for the entire human race. Moreover, we can discern no natural connection between any sin and death.

I like how physiological causes aren't even considered. "Since we observe no causal link between an individual's sin and death, the only other possible alternative is that Adam's sin is responsible. Therefore, the doctrine of original sin." And all the baggage that comes with it...

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Yeah, Banned is REALLY good at telling everyone else what we think.

I see that. Him and several others.

If it's any consolation, I think Khemkal is being unrealistic in his expectation that all Catholics conform to every edict contained within the Catechism. My family is Catholic. Most use birth control and engage in other behaviors frowned upon by the Papacy. It doesn't represent cognitive dissonance to differ with the Church on certain things, and it doesn't make them any less Catholic.

[The Grand Nudger]

I certainly don;t have any such expectation..and I laud them from falling from their absurd faiths - I don't believe that shit either....so I'm sympathetic.

If they want to pronounce authoritatively, however, on "the catholic position" - then they better get their shit right. Bare minimum effort. We all know that the religious have a tendency not to believe their own professed religions..but do -they- realize they have that tendency? No, they get snippy about it, lol...despite being informed of nothing other than both the truth, and the "truth" as told by their religion.

It's to this, and to the messenger, which they are objecting. Parse that. They'll denounce the doctrine of the RCC if a mean old atheist is the one that brings it to them, lol. Asses, and holes in the ground, it seems to me.

[Whateverist]

Admitting you're a sinner is generally only a problem for narcissists.

They hate to think that they are prone to make mistakes, which they make more often than anyone else.

The comments on this thread suggest that Atheism is the perfect religion for narcissists.

Do you realize that Vulcanlogical expressly conceded at the start of this thread that, stripped of the religious trappings, he would have no problem conceding that he has (secular) sinned, regrets it but recognizes he will no doubt let himself down again in the future.

You hold the "atheists are narcissists" as a properly basic belief, don't you?

The moment you refer to atheism as a religion is the moment you lose any credibility you MAY have had.

And since "sin" is a religious concept, most atheists don't recognise it.

Everyone makes mistakes, and no atheists will say different.

When we talk about mistakes we are talking morality. And since that term is out of the question with atheists, they cannot admit making mistakes.

More of your basic canon that atheists are incapable of morality?  Your ignorance and prejudice are showing.  Apparently you have no shame.  Is morality over your head?

What exactly am I reinterpreting? This is what I was taught in my Catholic school and Catholic upbringing.

Some of the more old school folks take the literal approach to Original Sin - that Adam and Eve ate an apple and we literally inherited their sin genetically. And that's fine too.

Doesn't matter whether you take the literal approach or not, the take away point is that as human beings we all have an inherent tendency to sin, aka original sin.

Your interpretation of original sin is Biblical, but the Catholic church does not have that view, even though you are a Catholic.

You sure grant yourself an enormous amount of expertise, don't you?  I look forward to seeing a line through your appropriate username.  You are definitely on that path.