Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic

[robvalue]

Odin is necessary if we say he is. We just define him that way.

Even better, we can define Odin as existent, thus proving he exists.

[Huggy Bear]

Huggy74 said that he could present evidence against Odin.

Huggy74
I'll take you up on submitting evidence against Odin, I won't break a sweat winning that argument.

Start a thread whenever you're ready.

I figured I'd take him up on that.  So for the sake of this argument I'm taking on the position of "Odin Exists, and you can't prove to me otherwise."  For this topic I will abandon logic in the same way theists do for their god, to defend 'mine'.  (Obviously I don't actually believe in Odin.  I'm acting as a Devil's Advocate for this experiment)  Anyone who wants to join me in debunking his evidence is more than welcome to join.  Alternately if someone wants to join his side, and disprove Odin, they're more than welcome to do so as well.  This isn't a formal debate.  Christians always want us atheists to disprove their god.  Now it's their turn to disprove someone else's.  

First and Foremost I will state that it is of utmost importance to remember than any stories in the Norse Tales are second hand stories, passed down, and are not in fact the word of Odin himself.  Any stories told are simply allegory or misunderstandings of an ancient group of people.  Therefore, I will not accept any evidence that debunks Norse Tales--because they are just that.  I can easily dismiss all claims to the contrary as "Allegory" much like our Christian friends do.  And I have good reason to--after all, the Norse tales aren't the word of Odin himself, like the Bible claims to be the word of god.

Second, I will provide my evidence for Odin:  There are no Frost Giants.  Odin said he would rid the world of Frost Giants.  Clearly he did.  Now one might argue that Frost Giants did not exist.  But that can't be proven either.  And even if they didn't, I can simply fall back on the first and foremost statement:  It's just allegory.   But given that we don't see any Frost Giants walking around, I can (in theistic logic) attribute that to Odin.  (After all, theists attribute miracles all the time, as well as NDE's, and everything else)

Now, I await Huggy's evidence that Odin does not exist.  I don't believe he'll be able to disprove it.

Haha I didn't think you had the cajones, my rebuttal incoming soon.

[robvalue]

Remember to "prove" how we can know something isn't beyond the limits of what we can observe and test.

In other words, you know that there are no unknown unknowns.

I'd recommend going with, "Everyone knows Odin is fictional".

[purplepurpose]

God is made out of Magic as well as hell and heaven, so, because we don't have any evidence for existence of such Divine Magic, Magical Odin is in the same position as other Magical God's. 

You cannot deny the existence of any Magical God.

[LadyForCamus]

Odin is necessary if we say he is. We just define him that way.

Even better, we can define Odin as existent, thus proving he exists.

We hold properly basic belief in Odin.  That means it’s logical, because.

Also, I’ve had a personal experience with Odin himself. He came to me in a vision and I know for a fact that it was real; not a dream or hallucination. I know other people who have been personally touhed by him as well. Our testimony is evidence of his existence.

[robvalue]

Odin is necessary if we say he is. We just define him that way.

Even better, we can define Odin as existent, thus proving he exists.

We hold properly basic belief in Odin.  That means it’s logical, because.

Exactly, you're getting it! And that means we get to say who goes into which bathroom and who can marry who.

[purplepurpose]

We hold properly basic belief in Odin.  That means it’s logical, because.

Exactly, you're getting it! And that means we get to say who goes into which bathroom and who can marry who.

Holy Book is like a vine - age rises it's popularity. 

“Odin is highest and most ancient of the Aesir.  He rules all things, and mighty though the other gods are, yet they all submit to him like children to their father.”

“Odin is called All-father, for he is father of all gods.”

[vulcanlogician]

We hold properly basic belief in Odin.  That means it’s logical, because.

Also, I’ve had a personal experience with Odin himself.  He came to me in a vision and I know for a fact that it was real; not a dream or hallucination.  I know other people who have been personally touhed by him as well.  Our testimony is evidence of his existence.

And just in case people try to claim you are saying that for arguments sake, Camus, (doubters! all of them!) I found another account of the wise and powerful Odin online. It's... pretty interesting...

One of the big rituals at the Pagan festival I attend is the Drawing Down.  It is where multiple priests and priestesses allow a divinity to take temporary possession of their bodies so that they can speak with devotees.  Who you speak with is typically luck of the draw.  Rarely are masculine divinities drawn down in my experience, as female divinities are just more popular it seems. Even more rare, in my experience, is having a walker seek out a particular person at a divinity's behest.  I experienced both this time.

As a friend and I approached the entrance to the ritual area, we found a walker waiting.  At first I thought that he was warding the area, making sure people passing by were quiet and would not interrupt proceedings.  He held out his hand to my friend and promptly led her past the dozen or so people waiting to speak with a divinity.  I was surprised but glad for my friend.  

I waited only 2-3 minutes before a walker entered the area and made a beeline for me.  I, too, was lead past the others that had been waiting before me.  The walker told me I was going to see Odin.  My heart dropped.  Yay for seeing a masculine divinity for a change...but...Odin has a very fierce reputation.  I must of trembled because the walker asked me if I was nervous.  I told him that I'm always nervous before I go see a divinity.  Things had happened so quickly I had had no time to prepare myself and well...Odin.  The walker chuckled and told me that Odin was in a very good and chatty mood.  He would probably ask me to sit down while we chatted.  That was another surprise.  Usually you are either kept standing or asked to kneel.

Sure enough, as soon as I was led to Odin's pavilion, I felt waves of peace rolling off of him.  As he started to speak, he seemed very grandfatherly, like the type of grandfather I've always wanted but never had.  He asked me to sit.  I probably talked with him for 5 to 10 minutes which is also unusual.  He pointed out to me that I had allowed myself to be caught up in a modern mindset that really didn't apply to me, my situation or even my belief system.  Among other things, he also said that it is a modern mindset the idea that one can raise a child alone.

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-cultur...-odin.html

If that doesn't count as proof of Odin's majesty, I don't know what does. (Compare/contrast with various experiences of Jesus.) Huggy is gonna have a hard time disproving this one.

[Joods]

Ridicule does not invalidate my point.

There was no ridicule in her statement.

---

Odin is not a necessary being. So it doesn't matter. Next.

My mother isn't a necessary being. She still exists, I simply have no need for her in my life.

How does your "point" prove Odin doesn't exist? 

Short answer: It doesn't prove anything. 

Next!

---

Can't wait to hear the Hugster's argument.

He's probably busy mining all the non-relevant quotes he plans on using for this argument.

[Huggy Bear]

First and Foremost I will state that it is of utmost importance to remember than any stories in the Norse Tales are second hand stories, passed down, and are not in fact the word of Odin himself.  Any stories told are simply allegory or misunderstandings of an ancient group of people.  Therefore, I will not accept any evidence that debunks Norse Tales--because they are just that.  I can easily dismiss all claims to the contrary as "Allegory" much like our Christian friends do.  And I have good reason to--after all, the Norse tales aren't the word of Odin himself, like the Bible claims to be the word of god.

Second, I will provide my evidence for Odin:  There are no Frost Giants.  Odin said he would rid the world of Frost Giants.  Clearly he did.  Now one might argue that Frost Giants did not exist.  But that can't be proven either.  And even if they didn't, I can simply fall back on the first and foremost statement:  It's just allegory.   But given that we don't see any Frost Giants walking around, I can (in theistic logic) attribute that to Odin.  (After all, theists attribute miracles all the time, as well as NDE's, and everything else)

Now, I await Huggy's evidence that Odin does not exist.  I don't believe he'll be able to disprove it.

I will respond to this by stating that every single major mythology and even the doctrines of some Christian denominations evolved from ancient Babylonian pagan religion.

The peoples of Ancient Mesopotamia, being the cradle of civilization changed from monotheism to polytheism, for example, Abraham was from the city of Ur which was a city of Sumeria, Abraham left the city in search of the one true God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

A confrontation between Nimrod and Abraham is said to have taken place, according to several Jewish and Islamic traditions. Some stories bring them both together in a cataclysmic collision, seen as a symbol of the confrontation between Good and Evil, and/or as a symbol of monotheism against polytheism.

Everyone is familiar with the tower of Babel (which meant the 'gate of God', 'Bab' meaning gate and 'El' meaning God, and more importantly "El Shaddai" is another name for the one God) story where at one time everyone spoke the same language but were confused and ended up speaking many different languages, but the same could be said with religion, one God turned in to many gods.

As people migrated out, the Babylonian pagan religion spread throughout the world by way of Egypt, Greece and Rome.

For example Both Horus and Odin sacrifice one of their eyes
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11548-nimrod

When Nimrod was informed that Abraham had come forth from the furnace uninjured, he remitted his persecution of the worshiper of Yhwh; but on the following night he saw in a dream a man coming out of the furnace and advancing toward him with a drawn sword. Nimrod thereupon ran away, but the man threw an egg at him; this was afterward transformed into a large river in which all his troops were drowned, only he himself and three of his followers escaping. Then the river again became an egg, and from the latter came forth a small fowl, which flew at Nimrod and pecked out his eye.

Who is Nimrod?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

The first biblical mention of Nimrod is in the Table of Nations. He is described as the son of Cush, grandson of Ham, and great-grandson of Noah; and as "a mighty one in the earth" and "a mighty hunter before the Lord". This is repeated in the First Book of Chronicles 1:10, and the "Land of Nimrod" used as a synonym for Assyria or Mesopotamia, is mentioned in the Book of Micah 5:6:

   And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

Genesis says that the "beginning of his kingdom" (reshit mamlakto) were the towns of "Babel, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in the land of Shinar" (Mesopotamia) (Gen 10:10)

http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/...901_q.html

Nimrod means "tyrant". He led the Sumerians of Babylon to pay tribute to the skies (sun, moon, stars, planets) with the sacrifice of their children. The Tower of Babel was built for this purpose, echoed in other cultures such as the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas. Since the head of this government was such an idolatrous tyrant, Shem (Nimrod's uncle) killed him. Nimrod's mother, Semiramis, consoled the people by making them believe the child she carried was Nimrod "reincarnated" -- and named him "Duzu" (Tammuz), Babylonian for the son who rises. This Duzu went into the groves (forests) and placed a gift on a tree to honor Nimrod each year at the winter solstice. It has been said that Duzu was the offspring of Nimrod, who mated with his mother. Nimrod became known as Baal, meaning LORD, and was worshipped by the Babylonians as the sun in the sky -- thus the origin of "going to the heavens" at death.

Therefore it is my position that the Norse god Odin is derived from previously held concepts and can reasonably be dismissed as being real.