Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic

[Joods]

Huggy's an atheist!!!

I knew it!

[Fake Messiah]

Everyone is familiar with the tower of Babel (which meant the 'gate of God', 'Bab' meaning gate and 'El' meaning God, and more importantly "El Shaddai" is another name for the one God) story where at one time everyone spoke the same language but were confused and ended up speaking many different languages, but the same could be said with religion, one God turned in to many gods.

Actually, according to the Bible, people were talking many other languages before the tower of Babel incident:

By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands, every one after his tongue. Genesis 10:5

These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues. Genesis 10:20

These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues. Genesis 10:31

[Huggy Bear]

Everyone is familiar with the tower of Babel (which meant the 'gate of God', 'Bab' meaning gate and 'El' meaning God, and more importantly "El Shaddai" is another name for the one God) story where at one time everyone spoke the same language but were confused and ended up speaking many different languages, but the same could be said with religion, one God turned in to many gods.

Actually, according to the Bible, people were talking many other languages before the tower of Babel incident:

By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands, every one after his tongue. Genesis 10:5

These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues. Genesis 10:20

These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues. Genesis 10:31

Genesis chapter 11 verse 1

And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

What you're doing is misinterpreting the scripture, what you reference is the bible telling where Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans descended from Chronologically, It's basically laying out the whole history of where every nation descended from, you'd see that if you kept the scriptures in context.

[GrandizerII]

I will respond to this by stating that every single major mythology and even the doctrines of some Christian denominations evolved from ancient Babylonian pagan religion.

Even Chinese mythology and Aboriginal mythologies? I don't think so.

And it's not like Biblical mythology never borrowed some stories from prior mythologies (like the Flood story).

The peoples of Ancient Mesopotamia, being the cradle of civilization changed from monotheism to polytheism, for example, Abraham was from the city of Ur which was a city of Sumeria, Abraham left the city in search of the one true God.

Not historically accurate ... at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

A confrontation between Nimrod and Abraham is said to have taken place, according to several Jewish and Islamic traditions. Some stories bring them both together in a cataclysmic collision, seen as a symbol of the confrontation between Good and Evil, and/or as a symbol of monotheism against polytheism.

Everyone is familiar with the tower of Babel (which meant the 'gate of God', 'Bab' meaning gate and 'El' meaning God, and more importantly "El Shaddai" is another name for the one God) story where at one time everyone spoke the same language but were confused and ended up speaking many different languages, but the same could be said with religion, one God turned in to many gods.

As people migrated out, the Babylonian pagan religion spread throughout the world by way of Egypt, Greece and Rome.

Again, this is not historically accurate. Just because the story of the Tower of Babel is in the Bible doesn't mean it's true.

For example Both Horus and Odin sacrifice one of their eyes

Correlation does not mean causation.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11548-nimrod

When Nimrod was informed that Abraham had come forth from the furnace uninjured, he remitted his persecution of the worshiper of Yhwh; but on the following night he saw in a dream a man coming out of the furnace and advancing toward him with a drawn sword. Nimrod thereupon ran away, but the man threw an egg at him; this was afterward transformed into a large river in which all his troops were drowned, only he himself and three of his followers escaping. Then the river again became an egg, and from the latter came forth a small fowl, which flew at Nimrod and pecked out his eye.

Who is Nimrod?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

The first biblical mention of Nimrod is in the Table of Nations. He is described as the son of Cush, grandson of Ham, and great-grandson of Noah; and as "a mighty one in the earth" and "a mighty hunter before the Lord". This is repeated in the First Book of Chronicles 1:10, and the "Land of Nimrod" used as a synonym for Assyria or Mesopotamia, is mentioned in the Book of Micah 5:6:

   And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

Genesis says that the "beginning of his kingdom" (reshit mamlakto) were the towns of "Babel, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in the land of Shinar" (Mesopotamia) (Gen 10:10)

http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/...901_q.html

Nimrod means "tyrant". He led the Sumerians of Babylon to pay tribute to the skies (sun, moon, stars, planets) with the sacrifice of their children. The Tower of Babel was built for this purpose, echoed in other cultures such as the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas. Since the head of this government was such an idolatrous tyrant, Shem (Nimrod's uncle) killed him. Nimrod's mother, Semiramis, consoled the people by making them believe the child she carried was Nimrod "reincarnated" -- and named him "Duzu" (Tammuz), Babylonian for the son who rises. This Duzu went into the groves (forests) and placed a gift on a tree to honor Nimrod each year at the winter solstice. It has been said that Duzu was the offspring of Nimrod, who mated with his mother. Nimrod became known as Baal, meaning LORD, and was worshipped by the Babylonians as the sun in the sky -- thus the origin of "going to the heavens" at death.

Therefore it is my position that the Norse god Odin is derived from previously held concepts and can reasonably be dismissed as being real.

Yet, you haven't successfully argued for your position. Basing your argument on questionable sources, and forcing connections where there are none, isn't what constitutes an effective rebuttal. You also didn't address Cecilia's OP argument in its entirety. She's arguing that whatever you hear about Odin that is questionable should be seen as nothing more than allegory. Refute that if you can!

[brewer]

Disproving Odin by attempting to prove god. Talk about your one trick pony.

[The Grand Nudger]

So..... your "argument", Hugs, is a fairy tale about a stone age skyscraper...from magic book?

[chimp3]

Actually, according to the Bible, people were talking many other languages before the tower of Babel incident:

By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands, every one after his tongue. Genesis 10:5

These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues. Genesis 10:20

These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues. Genesis 10:31

Genesis chapter 11 verse 1

And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

What you're doing is misinterpreting the scripture, what you reference is the bible telling where Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans descended from Chronologically, It's basically laying out the whole history of where every nation descended from, you'd see that if you kept the scriptures in context.

They were shit poor historians.

[LadyForCamus]

First and Foremost I will state that it is of utmost importance to remember than any stories in the Norse Tales are second hand stories, passed down, and are not in fact the word of Odin himself.  Any stories told are simply allegory or misunderstandings of an ancient group of people.  Therefore, I will not accept any evidence that debunks Norse Tales--because they are just that.  I can easily dismiss all claims to the contrary as "Allegory" much like our Christian friends do.  And I have good reason to--after all, the Norse tales aren't the word of Odin himself, like the Bible claims to be the word of god.

Second, I will provide my evidence for Odin:  There are no Frost Giants.  Odin said he would rid the world of Frost Giants.  Clearly he did.  Now one might argue that Frost Giants did not exist.  But that can't be proven either.  And even if they didn't, I can simply fall back on the first and foremost statement:  It's just allegory.   But given that we don't see any Frost Giants walking around, I can (in theistic logic) attribute that to Odin.  (After all, theists attribute miracles all the time, as well as NDE's, and everything else)

Now, I await Huggy's evidence that Odin does not exist.  I don't believe he'll be able to disprove it.

I will respond to this by stating that every single major mythology and even the doctrines of some Christian denominations evolved from ancient Babylonian pagan religion.

The peoples of Ancient Mesopotamia, being the cradle of civilization changed from monotheism to polytheism, for example, Abraham was from the city of Ur which was a city of Sumeria, Abraham left the city in search of the one true God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

A confrontation between Nimrod and Abraham is said to have taken place, according to several Jewish and Islamic traditions. Some stories bring them both together in a cataclysmic collision, seen as a symbol of the confrontation between Good and Evil, and/or as a symbol of monotheism against polytheism.

Everyone is familiar with the tower of Babel (which meant the 'gate of God', 'Bab' meaning gate and 'El' meaning God, and more importantly "El Shaddai" is another name for the one God) story where at one time everyone spoke the same language but were confused and ended up speaking many different languages, but the same could be said with religion, one God turned in to many gods.

As people migrated out, the Babylonian pagan religion spread throughout the world by way of Egypt, Greece and Rome.

For example Both Horus and Odin sacrifice one of their eyes
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11548-nimrod

When Nimrod was informed that Abraham had come forth from the furnace uninjured, he remitted his persecution of the worshiper of Yhwh; but on the following night he saw in a dream a man coming out of the furnace and advancing toward him with a drawn sword. Nimrod thereupon ran away, but the man threw an egg at him; this was afterward transformed into a large river in which all his troops were drowned, only he himself and three of his followers escaping. Then the river again became an egg, and from the latter came forth a small fowl, which flew at Nimrod and pecked out his eye.

Who is Nimrod?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

The first biblical mention of Nimrod is in the Table of Nations. He is described as the son of Cush, grandson of Ham, and great-grandson of Noah; and as "a mighty one in the earth" and "a mighty hunter before the Lord". This is repeated in the First Book of Chronicles 1:10, and the "Land of Nimrod" used as a synonym for Assyria or Mesopotamia, is mentioned in the Book of Micah 5:6:

   And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

Genesis says that the "beginning of his kingdom" (reshit mamlakto) were the towns of "Babel, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in the land of Shinar" (Mesopotamia) (Gen 10:10)

http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/...901_q.html

Nimrod means "tyrant". He led the Sumerians of Babylon to pay tribute to the skies (sun, moon, stars, planets) with the sacrifice of their children. The Tower of Babel was built for this purpose, echoed in other cultures such as the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas. Since the head of this government was such an idolatrous tyrant, Shem (Nimrod's uncle) killed him. Nimrod's mother, Semiramis, consoled the people by making them believe the child she carried was Nimrod "reincarnated" -- and named him "Duzu" (Tammuz), Babylonian for the son who rises. This Duzu went into the groves (forests) and placed a gift on a tree to honor Nimrod each year at the winter solstice. It has been said that Duzu was the offspring of Nimrod, who mated with his mother. Nimrod became known as Baal, meaning LORD, and was worshipped by the Babylonians as the sun in the sky -- thus the origin of "going to the heavens" at death.

Therefore it is my position that the Norse god Odin is derived from previously held concepts and can reasonably be dismissed as being real.

Reasonable dismissal of a claim is not the same thing as proving the non-existence of its subject, which is what you said you were able to do. Try again, love.

[Fake Messiah]

Yeah Huggy dismisses Odin because he is derived and familiar from other religions, while Jesus who never said anything that wasn't already in OT or some other book is apparently genuine with his life and death that has been done to death in other religions. I mean virgin birth, son of god, turning wine into blood, having apostles, death and resurrection are nothing new in 30 CE.

[Huggy Bear]

So..... your "argument", Hugs, is a fairy tale about a stone age skyscraper...from magic book?

No, my argument is that Odin is a myth formed from older myths... The city of Babel existed... Their mythology also existed... That mythology was incorporated into Norse mythology. Therefore since Norse mythology is in no way original, it cannot be the truth, making Odin not real.

Got it?

---

Reasonable dismissal of a claim is not the same thing as proving the non-existence of its subject, which is what you said you were able to do.  Try again, love.

see above

Besides

Huggy74 said that he could present evidence against Odin.

Evidence does not equate to proof.