I will become Atheist if.....

[Mystic]

I'm just asking you guys to justify the human experience in a Atheistic framework.

[Aegon]

I don't know what the hell that means

[Mystic]

I don't know what the hell that means

Justify the human experience of virtues, deeds, value of people, worth of people increasing by their good actions, perpetual identity,  the language of love etc, from the Atheistic framework.

[vulcanlogician]

Does a soul really need to have a metaphysical existence to be acknowledged for what it is?

"Body am I, and soul"-- thus speaks the child. And why should one not speak as children?
But the awakened and knowing say:"Body am I entirely, and 'soul' is just a word for something about the body."

My question to MK is: What if it turned out to be just as Nietzsche says, and the thing you call the soul turned out to be ultimately physical in nature? Doesn't it deserve the same respect and regard that you gave to it before? Does a soul only deserve moral respect if it is immaterial?

[The Grand Nudger]

It's something you don;t need anyones help for, and frankly, something that will only resonate with you if you manage it yourself.  You're a human being.  Either you can justify those things by reference to our shared experience as human beings.... or you can't..and if you can't....as another poster implored..please don't stop believing.  

It is absurd to stand where you are now and insist that you'll see something in this thread that;s wholly new, heretofore unknown to you.  That if someone could answer those questions you've seen asked and answered..that you've asked and had answered....dozens and dozens of times over...questions that you could answer yourself without asking anyone else (or hey..couldn't..if you say so)...and then suggest that this will somehow alter the status of your faith.  

You're simply not being honest with yourself, in this.

[Joods]

I am getting awfully bored...so I am going to give you guys the best opportunity to bring me to the dark side which will allow me to do all these things I really want to do but restrict myself from doing!


1. You can rationally justify belief in a value of a human being in the framework of Atheism (and I am using this definition as in non-belief in supernatural gods).
2. You can rationally justify you being the same person as a child with that framework, that despite all the changes, you are the same person.
3. You can rationally justify your actions being linked to who you are and there is a such thing as "better" or "worse" when it comes to humans.
4.  You can rationally justify the belief in justice with your framework.
5. You can rationally justify the nature of love that has language that judges all things and gives value to all things from your framework.

I am not saying you have to do all 5. You can do 1. Trust me, my faith will fall and shred, if you can and I'm not joking.  It will shred.

So ball is in your court.

Okay for starters - Atheists aren't on "the dark side". I get so sick of hearing that. Just because we don't believe in a god or gods doesn't mean we come from some sort of dark side. 

Second - I don't think anyone here is willing to waste their time (or yours) trying to convince you of anything. Either you use logic and reason or you don't. If you want to believe in a sky fairy, then that's your choice. If you want to see the absurdity in deities, then that also, is your choice.

[Edwardo Piet]

1. You can rationally justify belief in a value of a human being in the framework of Atheism (and I am using this definition as in non-belief in supernatural gods).

People are valuable because of the value they are able to bring into the world, to themselves and to others (others including all conscious beings, not just humans). That's the only real value that exists in this world. Belief in God can't get you more than that.

2. You can rationally justify you being the same person as a child with that framework, that despite all the changes, you are the same person.

I don't understand this point. I was the same as a child. I've been an atheist since I was about 10 when I learned about evolution so I no longer needed to believe in an intelligent being to explain the existence of the beautiful variety of humans, animals and plants anymore. Before then I was a deist. I have never been religious. Even as a tiny child I assumed the Bible and Koran were just fables or story books. It wasn't until I was a young adult that I became shocked that adults actually literally believe that crazy magical stuff.

3. You can rationally justify your actions being linked to who you are and there is a such thing as "better" or "worse" when it comes to humans.

There is a such thing as better or worse. It's worse to harm someone than to help someone, and better to help someone than to harm someone. No one deserves to suffer unnecessarily. You'd need a rational justifcation for why unnecessary suffering wouldn't be unnecessary harm and unnecessarily bad.

My actions are linked to who I am, but who I am is ultimately linked to cause and effect and it's the same with everyone and everything else.

4.  You can rationally justify the belief in justice with your framework.

Retributive justice is evil and immoral. I can rationally justify that all beings that are born into this world equally don't deserve to suffer unnecessarily, simply by the fact that that doesn't need a rational justification but the opposite would.

5. You can rationally justify the nature of love that has language that judges all things and gives value to all things from your framework.

That's all just nonsense. Love is not in all things. Love is in human brains, and in the brains of other lifeforms that are of similar intelligence and have similar positive emotions. Love is a positive emotion, and the value of love is also part of the brain. And true, real, objective values, objectively reside within the brain, and are very real and, indeed, valuable. That's why we call them values in the first place. Even the so-called 'incorrect values' are valuable to someone, if they're values at all in the concrete, and not just in the hypothetical. If someone values something, then that really is valuable, at least to them, and objectively so. The ontology of values resides in their brain, but outside of that it's epistemic objectivity that is interesting on this matter. And ontologically subjective values can be objective epistemically.

I am not saying you have to do all 5. You can do 1. Trust me, my faith will fall and shred, if you can and I'm not joking.  It will shred.

I thought you were going to stop posting about religion? Did you just make that thread to get a bunch of kudos?

[henryp]

I am getting awfully bored...so I am going to give you guys the best opportunity to bring me to the dark side which will allow me to do all these things I really want to do but restrict myself from doing!


1. You can rationally justify belief in a value of a human being in the framework of Atheism (and I am using this definition as in non-belief in supernatural gods).
2. You can rationally justify you being the same person as a child with that framework, that despite all the changes, you are the same person.
3. You can rationally justify your actions being linked to who you are and there is a such thing as "better" or "worse" when it comes to humans.
4.  You can rationally justify the belief in justice with your framework.
5. You can rationally justify the nature of love that has language that judges all things and gives value to all things from your framework.

I am not saying you have to do all 5. You can do 1. Trust me, my faith will fall and shred, if you can and I'm not joking.  It will shred.

So ball is in your court.

What if they can't be rationalized because they are irrational ideas that came to be for social and evolutionary purposes?

[Brian37]

I am getting awfully bored...so I am going to give you guys the best opportunity to bring me to the dark side which will allow me to do all these things I really want to do but restrict myself from doing!


1. You can rationally justify belief in a value of a human being in the framework of Atheism (and I am using this definition as in non-belief in supernatural gods).
2. You can rationally justify you being the same person as a child with that framework, that despite all the changes, you are the same person.
3. You can rationally justify your actions being linked to who you are and there is a such thing as "better" or "worse" when it comes to humans.
4.  You can rationally justify the belief in justice with your framework.
5. You can rationally justify the nature of love that has language that judges all things and gives value to all things from your framework.

I am not saying you have to do all 5. You can do 1. Trust me, my faith will fall and shred, if you can and I'm not joking.  It will shred.

So ball is in your court.

EVOLUTION...... There is your value. No magic needed to explain life. 

Skip your romance theory of life. That was then, this is now. It was understandable humans wrote that crap back then, but we have much better data about life and the universe.

[Mr.Obvious]

If you don't think humans are worth a damn if there isn't a god or that justice is worthless without a cosmic judge, ... Then for fuck's sake stick to your delusions man.
I'd rather have you be blinded than have others be hurt at your hand, if that's what you are getting at.