Open discussion of the Christian Why We're Here thread

[Edwardo Piet]

"Man by his nature desires to know" and the pursuit of pure knowledge does have value.

Well then... in the moments where you seek knowledge for its own sake then you're not engaging in confirmation bias... but in the moments in which you seek it for furthering Christianity (or for anything else), then that does involve confirmation bias.

If I went seeking knowledge to support atheism then moments in which I did that rather than seeking knowledge for its own sake I'd be falling into confirmation bias as well. But, of course, I don't go seeking knowledge to support atheism (or to support the truth of any other position)... what would be the point?

If you want to really bolster your belief then surely you must recognize that the best way to bolster a position is by trying as hard as you can and failing to refute or falsify it, not to bolster it. If you really want to strengthen your faith, you should be challenging it... not looking for knowledge that helps you grow God's Kingdom when that already assumes that you're right. But that's just it.... you think you know you're right... without any evidence whatsoever and you're not even seeking knowledge to the contrary. That's the whole problem by not seeking knowledge for its own sake. There should NOT be a reason for knowledge as then knowledge about anything else gets completely ignored, at least WHEN you're NOT seeking knowledge for its own sake.

[Whateverist]

bold mine. 

Oh please. Do tell me what sort of rational thought, a 4 or 5 year old sitting in a children's church being taught how beautiful the story of Noah's ark is, could possibly have? 

You know as well as I do that the vast majority of believers, do so because their parents taught them about god and how he was good and great. So they grew up thinking that god was real. And then they did it to their children and their children did it to their children ad nauseum. How else do you think religion has survived as long as it has? Indoctrination yes. Rational thought? Hell no. If theists had any sort of rational thought, they wouldn't be theists in the first place. 

You are being completely disingenuous when you say otherwise.

I'm speaking from personal experience. Church was pretty hit-or-miss when I was growing up, and we discussed none of the topics that she mentioned there. So, no, I wasn't indoctrinated.

Pretty sure they put it in the punch.  

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Yeah, joking.

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[Edwardo Piet]

I changed my username because another member was calling on others to physically harm me. Everyone knows this. I guess it is too much to ask that people stop referring to me by name and respect the concerns I have for the safety of me and my family.

Wow, I did not know this. I'm sorry, I'm one of the people who occasionally calls you by your name.

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No I'm saying it's not a generalization if the generalization is correct. Just as it's not a generalization to say that all squares have four sides or generalization to say that all Nazis who followed Hitler all followed Hitler.

Of course, nowhere did I suggest that all theists are anything--besides irrational in their theism--but the point is that what I said wasn't judgmental or patronizing because what he actually quoted I was right about, as Mathilda confirmed (all I was doing is saying what I think Mathilda was trying to say and it turns out it really was what she was trying to say)... but what he said was judgmental and patronizing because he literally spoke of atheists being ignorant of the truth and yet his beliefs about atheism being wrong have no basis. And what's more: he went much further than that... he said that we didn't even want hope, that we weren't even seeking the truth in other words--the truth from his perspective i.e. Christianity--and... ironically he flat out admitted (albeit implicitly but regardless of what he said it was an admission) that he is not interested in furthering knowledge for its own sake... a position which is guaranteed to lead to confirmation bias... so, ironically, is an example of him shutting his own eyes to truth (or at least the possibility of being wrong. If I'm wrong about atheism and God really does exist... at least I seek knowledge for its own sake so I have no reason to shut my eyes to anything that supports theism. Because I don't seek knowledge merely to further atheism... I seek knowledge to seek knowledge).

I don't think many of the generalizations made here about theists is correct.

What generalizations?

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bold mine. 

Oh please. Do tell me what sort of rational thought, a 4 or 5 year old sitting in a children's church being taught how beautiful the story of Noah's ark is, could possibly have? 

You know as well as I do that the vast majority of believers, do so because their parents taught them about god and how he was good and great. So they grew up thinking that god was real. And then they did it to their children and their children did it to their children ad nauseum. How else do you think religion has survived as long as it has? Indoctrination yes. Rational thought? Hell no. If theists had any sort of rational thought, they wouldn't be theists in the first place. 

You are being completely disingenuous when you say otherwise.

I would beg to differ.  There are plenty of people who come to believe in and have faith in God; later in life.  And many of them are quite intelligent, and do cite rational reasons for their belief that Christianity is true.  I would also point out that learning something when you are young, does not preclude a greater understanding and foundation for that belief later.  So I would say that you are just flat out wrong.  And I don't think that you have much to support the statements you make.

I think the clear context is that she's [Joods is] saying that if theists had any sort of rational thought about their theism then they wouldn't be theists in the first place. I don't think she's saying that all theists are irrational all 'round and if they were rational in any way about anything at all they wouldn't be theists (she's not calling all theists lunatics).

Of course it's not a generalization to say that all theists are irrational in their theism any more than it is to say all Trumptards are irrational in their Trumptardism or all [insert believer in something here] are irrational to believe in [insert belief here].

To be clear: If I thought there was even ONE theist who was rational in their theism then I'd BE a theist. Because it would mean that at least one theist had figured out logically sound arguments for, or found accurate empirical evidence that, a supernatural being really did create the universe so why on earth would I still be an atheist?

And likewise, if I thought that even ONE person was rational in their support of Trump... I'd support Trump. But obviously there isn't a single rational reason for supporting Trump because any possible reason is only going to be completely outweighed by how incredibly immoral and unfit for staying away from prison he is, let alone how unfit for president he is. Likewise, there obviously isn't a single rational reason for believing in fairy tales... if there was they wouldn't be fairy tales (and yes I obviously don't think that's a strawman of theism. If I did, I'd be a theist. Of course theists think that's a strawman because they by definition see their own theism as far more rational than belief in fairy tales whereas to atheists like me it isn't any more rational at all and it's a completely fair comparison).

[Catholic_Lady]

Wow, I did not know this. I'm sorry, I'm one of the people who occasionally calls you by your name.

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I don't think many of the generalizations made here about theists is correct.

What generalizations?

We are mentally ill, we blindly follow, we are irrational, we are less intelligent, we are less empathetic, we only do good for the sake of heavenly reward, pretty much all the damned threads, we are less mature, we don't think for ourselves, we only believe because "it's nice", we do not accept responsibility for our own actions because we are simply following orders, we are not properly raised, we are self centered...

Just to name a few I've seen lol.

[vorlon13]

What generalizations?

We are mentally ill, we blindly follow, we are irrational, we are less intelligent, we are less empathetic, we only do good for the sake of heavenly reward, pretty much all the damned threads, we are less mature, we don't think for ourselves, we only believe because "it's nice", we do not accept responsibility for our own actions because we are simply following orders, we are not properly raised, we are self centered...

Just to name a few I've seen lol.

I think I have (gently I hope) rebuked you for apostasy and/or heresy a few times . . .

[Amarok]

and they call Christians judgmental and patronizing.

Yes yes you are wooter

[Drich]

We don't have to be friend to speak to one another. If you can find your way to determine I am sincere and or honest in what I say, then perhaps I can be a rare resource that will tell you like it is rather than give you the lip service western culture demands. In essence once your done with everyone elses bs come to me for the way it is.

Right.   Because you think that calling my kids retards is going to get me to listen to you? 

1 - your people skills need a LOT of work. 
2 - putting my personal opinions about religion aside and looking at you for the human being you are supposed to be, as long as you continue to belittle others and put them down without a second thought, I hope no one will ever see you as the example of what Christ-like is supposed to be. I'm by no means perfect, but I'm also not trying to promote a "religion of peace" so how I come across to others with regard to being an example is a moot point. You however, go out of your way to tell everyone how they should live and behave and why they should follow Christ. Clearly - your shining example of calling my kids retards in another thread - hits a new low. I have no desire to learn from you or ask you for any advice when you have disregarded my children this way. Like I said in the other thread - I'm sure your god must really be proud of you.

I'm not the one that called your kids retards you did. I asked if they were retarded because of how you resented their basic cognitive skill set in recognizing truth. Because my children did not have any problem identifying truth.

honestly take 2 mins and read this: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV start at verse 12..

What this says is we are not all built the same. You are a hand and demand to be greeted as a hand, not only that you worshiped as a hand and only know how to praise as a hand. I came to you as a foot and greeted you as a foot. being 'snow flake' hand you thought it offensive to be greeted as a foot.

do you understand? You wanted me to greet you as you though a Christian should greet and address you. 

The problem, your idea of Christianity is not only wrong... it is toxic. to build a belief system on a god on a faith where everyone must conform to the degree that they can be manipulated by people outside of their beliefs is wrong... and I simply called you on that wrong not by connecting all the dots for you, but to use the same angry despondent tactic Christ used when confronted or when someone tried to manipulated him. And guess what you acted just like the Pharisees did.

Why one to get your goat for trying to get mine

Two to show you that you definition of who and what a follower of Christ is is so wrong you did not even know we were allowed/demonstrated by Christ Himself to be able to verbally beat you back/rebuke you. 

You were rebuked that's it. I never once told anyone they should live any such way. again that is your idea of what Christianity, and you have superposed it onto me. 

I am forever telling people they are free from the law, not that you should live xyz to be a good person. That good person is the devil's stick. With God you do not have to be a 'good person.' In fact God loves you because you know you are not nor ever will be a good person, so how then would I tell anyone how to live?

Again that is just a broad brush people with "slow" kids sometimes use to dismiss what someone has to say with out taking the time of reading or understanding what was said.

[Catholic_Lady]

and they call Christians judgmental and patronizing.

Yes yes you are wooter

Don't know if you saw, but Neo asked that we not call him by his real name because a member here once tried to get him hurt in real life.

[Whateverist]

and they call Christians judgmental and patronizing.

Yes yes you are wooter

Please note the his repeated requests to drop references to his real name.

[Amarok]

1. I don't believe that story 

2. Anyone who can already link his real name to the above already knows his name .And short of deleting every instance of the name . It's just pissing in the wind at this point .