Questions for "Our Role(s) as Christians on Atheist Forums"

[The Grand Nudger]

If God has better options he wouldn't pick the option of not preventing the kind of suffering that even us humans know should be prevented. He's already picked an option and it's a terrible one, that's the point.

Christians don;t believe that....so....?

The point is that if he doesn't want to he either doesn't care about the suffering (he has other priorities) or he is evil.

-aaaand christians don;t believe that either...so.....?

Irrelevant again. The Christians we are speaking to certainly believe God can at least do anything logically possible. More digressions from you.

That;s their problem, not yours or mine or gods.

[Catholic_Lady]

So if us all being born into solitary confinement would prevent child rape 100%, why don't you think being born into solitary confinement would be a better option? Are you saying you support child rape because you don't support us all being imprisoned in such a way that would prevent It?

I do think us all being born into solitary confinement would be a better option.

Really? You think it would be better if we were all born into individual little prison cells where we spent the rest of our lives?

Wow, ok lol. I don't understand that position, so I guess you won't be able to understand mine either. So for everyone else who may be reading and thinks the lifelong prison scenario wouldn't be a better option than allowing freedom (and all the good and bad that may come of such freedom), this is for you:

Hopefully you can understand the concept of thinking free will is overall a good thing, even though some bad things may come of it. Just as you think freedom itself is overall a good thing, even though bad things may come of it.

Yes, terrible things can come as a result of free will. It means people have the ability to rape and kill if they so choose to. But many very good things can come as a result of free will too - Our ability to freely love. To have rational thought and understanding. To choose to do good deeds for each other. To be human. Those are all good things.

[The Grand Nudger]

Way to lay up an easy out, Ham. 

Apparently, child rape needs to be possible so that we can learn to love and be rational, lol.

I guess it;s never occurred to a believer that the desire can be left intact without leaving the ability to consumate said desire. YTou know, rando child rapist thinks rapey thoughts but can;t get a chub...or just can;t bring his hands that final inch to touch a child. After all...I want to jump to the moon...but cant..................

[Edwardo Piet]

If God has better options he wouldn't pick the option of not preventing the kind of suffering that even us humans know should be prevented. He's already picked an option and it's a terrible one, that's the point.

Christians don;t believe that....so....?

Yes they do: They believe he has chosen to not intervene. We already know this. Stop being irrelevant and obtuse.

-aaaand christians don;t believe that either...so.....?

Sheesh. Stop being obtuse. Again, I am asking Christians questions about what they believe in order to show that that is what it entails. Either God doesn't care or he's evil... that's the conclusion that is entailed from God not choosing to intervene to prevent things like child rape and animal cruelty.

That;s their problem, not yours or mine or gods.

Trivially true and wholly irrelevant. Their problem, the problem in their position, is exactly what is being addressed when I'm asking them a Christian. Get back on topic or at least stop saying irrelevant and obtuse things to me.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes they do: They believe he has chosen to not intervene. We already know this. Stop being irrelevant and obtuse.

I think you might want to ask them again..many are convinced that god does intervene, that..for example, he;s somehow involved in sending the rescuers.  

Sheesh. Stop being obtuse. Again, I am asking Christians questions about what they believe in order to show that that is what it entails. Either God doesn't care or he's evil... that's the conclusion that is entailed from God not choosing to intervene to prevent things like child rape and animal cruelty.

-and they;re telling you that you're misrepresenting their position.  Imagine that.  

Trivially true and wholly irrelevant. Their problem, the problem in their position, is exactly what is being addressed when I'm asking them a Christian. Get back on topic or at least stop saying irrelevant and obtuse things to me.

Okay Ham, Ill get right on that, lol. 

[Edwardo Piet]

Way to lay up an easy out, Ham. 

Apparently, child rape needs to be possible so that we can learn to love and be rational, lol.

Another immoral excuse. What is your point? What's with all the irrelevant digressions? I'm merely pointing out the immoral conclusion in their position.

The question is why goes God allow that when he supposedly exists, cares and can allow it. The responses are unimpressive and the conclusion that is entailed from their response is that God either doesn't really care after all or he is sadistic.

I guess it;s never occurred to a believer that the desire can be left intact without leaving the ability to consumate said desire.  YTou know, rando child rapist thinks rapey thoughts but can;t get a chub...or just can;t bring his hands that final inch to touch a child.  After all...I want to jump to the moon...but cant..................

Or God could allow other desires to exist but not desires that lead to rape, animal torture, murder, etc. He could have created beings that were much closer copies of his supposedly good nature. They could be natural and far from morally perfect but at the very least not the sorts of beings that would want to perform such highly immoral acts. He could have also created a whole species in harmony at once rather than creating lowly animals that had to kill and eat and rape each other until they evolved into humans. All these are logically possible things that a God can supposedly do.

[The Grand Nudger]

Coulda woulda shoulda.  

Personally, I;m with Woody Allen on this one.  Stripping this god business of all the ludicrous baggage believers have attached..the worst thing we can say is that he;s an underachiever.

[Edwardo Piet]

I do think us all being born into solitary confinement would be a better option.

Really? You think it would be better if we were all born into individual little prison cells where we spent the rest of our lives?

You chose that as an alternative to being raped as a child, remember. Are you sure it's not you misrepresenting me here?

Wow, ok lol. I don't understand that position, so I guess you won't be able to understand mine either. So for everyone else who may be reading and thinks the lifelong prison scenario wouldn't be a better option than allowing freedom (and all the good and bad that may come of such freedom),

Wow this is awful. You totally misrepresented me and I never did it to you at all. I absolutely did not say that everyone being born in solitary confinement is better than everyone being free. I said that it's better than everyone being raped as a child.

Hopefully you can understand the concept of thinking free will is overall a good thing, even though some bad things may come of it. Just as you think freedom itself is overall a good thing, even though bad things may come of it.

Yes, terrible things can come as a result of free will. It means people have the ability to rape and kill if they so choose to. But many very good things can come as a result of free will too - Our ability to freely love. To have rational thought and understanding. To choose to do good deeds for each other. To be human. Those are all good things.

So why did you mention that irrelevant idea of solitary confinement when it has absolutely nothing to do with free will?

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Just to make it absolutely crystal clear that you REALLY DID 100% misrepresent ME CL:

So if us all being born into solitary confinement would prevent child rape 100%, why don't you think being born into solitary confinement would be a better option? Are you saying you support child rape because you don't support us all being imprisoned in such a way that would prevent It?

I do think us all being born into solitary confinement would be a better option.  Not so hard for me to answer was it? Somehow my guess is that that's not going to happen. God could do it though. Or better yet: God doesn't have to choose between two awful options like that. He could pick a better one. Like giving people 'free will' but intervening to prevent people harming children or animals... at the very least.

Again, this is a strawman because lack of free will has absolutely nothing to do with solitary confinement. I think I do genuinely understand your position as you have articulated. You have said on multiple occasions that God must have a good reason for not intervening when such awful things happen. Even that alone is an immoral position as far as I am concerned. The only other thing I said was that you mentioned that there must be a 'net good' in the long run in the supenatural realm. And you did say that as well. So perhaps you can tell me what I'm misrepresenting?!?!

I don't believe in free will at all but I do believe solitary confinement for everyone is awful. But still, not as bad as everyone being raped as a child. (I could be wrong on that one they're both very awful... but regardless it's both a false dilemma and a strawman).

Full context, nothing changed besides the text being colored red. Note the red text.

So there you have it folks. I never misrepresented CL, she never showed me how I misrepresented her, I asked her repeatedly to show. Then she actually misrepresents me and I show you exactly how she does.

CL please don't do that again. I consider you my friend.

That you reduced the part in red to this:

So for everyone else who may be reading and thinks the lifelong prison scenario wouldn't be a better option than allowing freedom (and all the good and bad that may come of such freedom)

Is a totally clear misrepresentation. I did NOT say that a lifelong prison scenario would be a better option than allowing freedom and all the good and bad that may come of such freedom. I said that solitary confinement for everyone would be a better scenario if it prevented 100% of child rape. You know, the part I put it in red, the question you actually asked and that I actually answered.

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I think you might want to ask them again..many are convinced that god does intervene, that..for example, he;s somehow involved in sending the rescuers.  

Irrelevant again.

Khem, you're responding so far away from my points, as per usual, that I often feel like the most effective way to respond to everything you say is just with "irrelevant."

The point is that the Christians here believe God doesn't intervene to prevent these things but could. AND they believe that he both exists and is compassionate.

-and they;re telling you that you're misrepresenting their position.  Imagine that. 

I was literally saying what you were saying. I'm not misrepresenting their position I'm showing them what their position entails. And you literally did the same thing so that makes you a hypocrite at best because even if I were you would be too (we're not). Quit trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Okay Ham, Ill get right on that, lol. 

About time.

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Yes, terrible things can come as a result of free will. It means people have the ability to rape and kill if they so choose to. But many very good things can come as a result of free will too - Our ability to freely love. To have rational thought and understanding. To choose to do good deeds for each other. To be human. Those are all good things.

So the question is... are those good things worth it? And then the follow-up question is... wouldn't it be better to have all those good things but also have God intervening to prevent the bad things?

[The Grand Nudger]

No, because no child rape then no love and reason, as you've already been informed. Cant have em both.

[Catholic_Lady]

Ham, the question I asked you was: Would you support every single person being imprisoned in solitary cells their whole lives, if it would prevent anyone from getting raped/murdered ever?

From what I understand, your answer was yes. What am I misrepresenting?