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RE: Hello.....I have a little problem
September 12, 2011 at 7:32 pm
(September 12, 2011 at 7:03 pm)Shell B Wrote: Still . . . no. Read this carefully. Atheism only applies to theism in my life. It does not apply to how I think people should be treated, how I should treat people, what I think about employment, marriage, hygiene, etc. It doesn't even apply to a significant fraction of my life. I don't base any of the important things on atheism. I'm sorry that you cannot seem to grasp this.
Actually, it has to influence your day to day beliefs and judgments. The fact that you do not use god as an influence means that you must be using 'not god' or more specifically, atheism, your own conscience. To me, atheism is not a belief system in a 'not god', but a belief system in myself and my ability to recognize right from wrong and establish my own morals.
Would I have picked a different restaurant today if I believed in a god? Possibly. Would I have chosen a different toothpaste? Probably not, but without a belief in a god, I cannot say something as innate as toothpaste would not have been influenced were I to believe as such.
So, yes. Most everything you do and probably everything else is influenced by your atheism. Your atheism is a part of who you are and has to influence your decisions.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
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RE: Hello.....I have a little problem
September 12, 2011 at 7:40 pm
(September 12, 2011 at 7:32 pm)IATIA Wrote: Actually, it has to influence your day to day beliefs and judgments.
No, it doesn't.
Quote:The fact that you do not use god as an influence means that you must be using 'not god' or more specifically, atheism, your own conscience.
Not using something is not the same as using something. Fairies do not influence my decisions. Does that mean that my non-belief in fairies is me using "not fairy" in making my everyday decisions? If you look at worldviews like that, it really muddies the water.
Quote:To me, atheism is not a belief system in a 'not god', but a belief system in myself and my ability to recognize right from wrong and establish my own morals.
Atheism isn't a belief system. You can believe in yourself and believe you can establish your own morals without being an atheist.
Quote:Would I have picked a different restaurant today if I believed in a god? Possibly. Would I have chosen a different toothpaste? Probably not, but without a belief in a god, I cannot say something as innate as toothpaste would not have been influenced were I to believe as such.
That's really stretching it. Just because a belief in something influences other people does not mean a lack of belief in the same thing is influential. Therein lies the problem. People are so influenced by their deities that they presume that lack of belief in such a deity is influential as well. Atheism is one small thing. Besides, if no one believed in god, would you say the same thing? No, because there would be no need for one insignificant thing to have a label if so many people weren't nut bag crazy about religion.
Quote:So, yes. Most everything you do and probably everything else is influenced by your atheism. Your atheism is a part of who you are and has to influence your decisions.
No, it isn't. No, it doesn't. Thank you for telling me what atheism does for me, though. You sure you aren't a bible thumper? 
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RE: Hello.....I have a little problem
September 12, 2011 at 7:53 pm
(This post was last modified: September 12, 2011 at 8:13 pm by IATIA.)
(September 8, 2011 at 1:15 pm)Tim the plumber Wrote: Hi,
I have not posted here due to the problem of preaching to the converted. However since the Islamic Forum and the Christian Forum have banned me I wonder if you have any suggestions as to how to take the message to the enemies of reason?
When I say banned from the Christian Forum it's actually that the site will not allow me on... they have not had the guts to actually tell me if I am banned but I think I have got the idea.
I have yet to convert even an agnostic. I just argue with theists in atheist forums. I will usually talk to the 'door to door' salesmen with their babble-book in hand and bring up things like, "Did you know Adam was god's slave, that his only purpose was to tend god's garden?". There is always the, "Show me in your book where Satan did anything wrong except to piss off god!". Of course Job comes up, "And! So, god and Satan made a bet and under god's authority ... Got anything else?"
Only problem with that is, they do not come around much any more.
In my day to day life, I let everyone know I am an atheist then by example, I show them I have as good or better morals than others.
I do not think anyone can convert a 'true believer' because we can never remove that underlying fear of "what if god does exist, I don't want to go to hell!".
(September 12, 2011 at 7:40 pm)Shell B Wrote: Not using something is not the same as using something.
Exactly my point.
Quote:Fairies do not influence my decisions. Does that mean that my non-belief in fairies is me using "not fairy" in making my everyday decisions
Some of your decisions would be different if you believed in fairies.
Quote:That's really stretching it. Just because a belief in something influences other people does not mean a lack of belief in the same thing is influential. Therein lies the problem. People are so influenced by their deities that they presume that lack of belief in such a deity is influential as well. Atheism is one small thing. Besides, if no one believed in god, would you say the same thing? No, because there would be no need for one insignificant thing to have a label if so many people weren't nut bag crazy about religion.
Your lack of belief in a god means that a god is not influencing your decisions. And on the same token, your overall persona, not being influenced by a belief in a god, is different than if you held a theistic point of view. Ergo, your atheism does in fact influence your decisions, albeit subconsciously or unconsciously. How can it not?
Quote:No, it isn't. No, it doesn't. Thank you for telling me what atheism does for me, though. You sure you aren't a bible thumper?
I am one of those rare professed 100% nihilistic atheists, but I probably know more about the babble-book than most bible thumpers. 
Hmmm ... Does that make me a bible thumper? 
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Hello.....I have a little problem
September 12, 2011 at 11:36 pm
Quote:I am one of those rare professed 100% nihilistic atheists, but I probably know more about the babble-book than most bible thumpers
Really?Pity.
Quote:Hmmm ... Does that make me a bible thumper
Nah, just a common-or-garden-variety big head and wanker. 
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Hello.....I have a little problem
September 13, 2011 at 12:21 am
I feel i need to comment here and if any of the regulars get mad at me for jumping in i apologize in advance. But i have seen the argument going before and it gets on my nerves. To all of you religious nuts who read this(no that does not mean all religious people are. I know some that dont think like this) Atheism is NOT a religion. Its not some big view you can classify people under. I do not believe believe in a god. Which gets me referred to as a atheist. Thats it. Thats where it stops. I could have no similarity with anyone else on this forum for all i know. I do not have moral code along with every other atheist. I feel different ways about certain things because of experiences in my life.....added to that. You keep stating that if there is not god then why is there a moral right and wrong and so on so forth. Why do we have laws. In my opinion. We have them because of different trials in our past. Im sure at some point there was a group of people who lived without laws. Without government. And im sure that was complete chaos. I would love to see the population growth rate from that. People have and are "experimenting" over time to see what works. Its also gone to the exact opposite. Take hitler for example. One person. Full control. I believe everyone saw how well that went. Needless to say in my opinion. We have no "divine" moral code. We have mindsets and concepts which have changed and evolved since the beginning. Passed down in the raising of each generation.....i believe thats enough of my rant for now. Whether or not i reply after this will depend hows things go.
Thanks for reading
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RE: Hello.....I have a little problem
September 13, 2011 at 1:53 am
(September 12, 2011 at 7:53 pm)IATIA Wrote: Exactly my point.
Odd. It seems like your point was that not using something in making a decision means it somehow factored into your decision. Unless that decision directly pertains to some god scenario, such as praying or going to church, my lack of belief in god doesn't affect it. Therefore, my lack of belief in god affects a very small portion of my life and therefore, cannot be labeled as a worldview. It is a religionview, at best.
Quote:Some of your decisions would be different if you believed in fairies.
Well, I think that would depend on what I believed about fairies. Still, it would not constitute a worldview unless I thought fairies had something to do with everything. Something affecting a decision or two does not make it a worldview.
Quote:Your lack of belief in a god means that a god is not influencing your decisions.
Yes, but there are other things influencing my decisions that make up my "worldview." Not having something in my worldview does not make it my worldview. A lack of orange juice is not orange juice.
Quote:And on the same token, your overall persona, not being influenced by a belief in a god, is different than if you held a theistic point of view.
That is not necessarily true. Atheism does not make up enough of my persona, personally, for it to be factored into my overall persona. I know plenty of theists who have very similar personality characteristics to myself. The only real differences being that they pray and go to church.
Quote:Ergo, your atheism does in fact influence your decisions, albeit subconsciously or unconsciously. How can it not?
Again, only very specific decisions. The rest of them it cannot influence because it simply does not apply. Just because god makes a person see the world so differently does not mean that not believing in god affects how a person sees the world on the same scale. The scale of my atheism and how it makes me see the world is not enough to constitute a worldview, which is a group of beliefs, not a single disbelief. I don't understand what is so difficult about this. It seems theists want to say that atheists are influenced overmuch by their atheism in order to apply their prejudices to everything about atheists and some crazy atheists want to give atheism more meaning than it has. Definitions, meet window.
Quote:I am one of those rare professed 100% nihilistic atheists, but I probably know more about the babble-book than most bible thumpers.
I wonder what sort of nihilist you identify as, though I probably disagree with you, if by 100% you mean in every way.
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RE: Hello.....I have a little problem
September 13, 2011 at 8:36 am
(September 13, 2011 at 1:53 am)Shell B Wrote: (September 12, 2011 at 7:53 pm)IATIA Wrote: I am one of those rare professed 100% nihilistic atheists, but I probably know more about the babble-book than most bible thumpers.
I wonder what sort of nihilist you identify as, though I probably disagree with you, if by 100% you mean in every way.
We live in a deterministic universe and our 'free will' is nothing more than our consciousness/awareness 'explaining to our mind' what we have already done. And probably, all of reality is nothing more than a construct of our awareness. (I am still on the bench with that.)
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Hello.....I have a little problem
September 13, 2011 at 1:14 pm
(September 13, 2011 at 8:36 am)IATIA Wrote: We live in a deterministic universe
Wouldn't that necessitate that the universe be a closed system? We're not entirely sure that is the case.
Quote:and our 'free will' is nothing more than our consciousness/awareness 'explaining to our mind' what we have already done.
Free will is about more than what you have done. It is about what we will do and what we want to do. I definitely disagree with the above statement, but am open to elaboration.
Quote:And probably, all of reality is nothing more than a construct of our awareness. (I am still on the bench with that.)
Hm. This depends on what you define as a "construct." Does this mean our awarenesses have made up reality for us? Or . . . is this more abstract? I guess it is only the word "construct" I disagree with here. I would use the word interpretation and call it a day. 
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RE: Hello.....I have a little problem
September 13, 2011 at 4:26 pm
(September 12, 2011 at 7:03 pm)Shell B Wrote: Still . . . no. Read this carefully. Atheism only applies to theism in my life. It does not apply to how I think people should be treated, how I should treat people, what I think about employment, marriage, hygiene, etc. It doesn't even apply to a significant fraction of my life. I don't base any of the important things on atheism. I'm sorry that you cannot seem to grasp this.
I assure you I grasp it, that’s why I know it is wrong. Why do you not base your views on how we should treat others, marriage, and truth on God’s revealed word in scripture? Oh wait! It’s because you don’t believe God exists so you base it on other things! Your atheism does affect everything you do, that’s just the way it works, it is your ultimate worldview everything else is contingent upon it.
Quote:So you have no problem with me calling you an arrogant, trollish liar with a knack for convincing yourself of the absurd?
Sure, but only if you can demonstrate this to be true. I have already demonstrated that you are philosophically ignorant when I asked you what your ultimate standard was and you replied that you don’t have one. Nobody who has even a shred of a philosophical background would deny having an ultimate standard, everyone has one. Most atheists would say human reason; that was the answer I would expect from a philosophically astute atheist.
Quote:Way to bring up something entirely irrelevant.
Just because you cannot connect the dots does not mean it is irrelevant. You said you didn’t believe in sin, implying you were therefore not guilty of it, so I gave you a real world example to demonstrate how this was logically fallacious reasoning.
(September 12, 2011 at 7:32 pm)IATIA Wrote:
Whoa!! Someone else who gets it! I have no idea why other atheists are so reluctant to admit that their ultimate worldview is atheism, it’s not that big of a deal.
(September 12, 2011 at 7:40 pm)Shell B Wrote: Not using something is not the same as using something. Fairies do not influence my decisions. Does that mean that my non-belief in fairies is me using "not fairy" in making my everyday decisions? If you look at worldviews like that, it really muddies the water.
False analogy, the existence or non-existence of fairies has no real bearing on reality, morality, logic, knowledge, existence, and purpose. The existence or non-existence of the God of scripture who created all things, governs all things, and owns you does.
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RE: Hello.....I have a little problem
September 13, 2011 at 5:13 pm
No one has to demonstrate that you're ignorant, you've already got that one handled.
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