Atheists and Cakes

[Mister Agenda]

If the (fictional) Antonio Carlos the famous baker of artistic cakes, each one a custom work of artistry, and who only sees supplicants by appointment, doesn't want to make a custom cake for a gay couple because 'muh religion', he's within his rights under our law. If he opens a shop on main street he is selling cakes in a place of public accommodation, ant the relevant laws apply. All states have public accommodation laws for race and religion, so there's nowhere in the country where he could deny someone who walks into his shop a cake he would make or have made for anyone else because they're 'a Jew or a Black'. He could not refuse to make or have made a wedding cake for an interracial couple if he offers wedding cakes. And in a state where public accommodation laws include sexual orientation, if he offers wedding cakes in his shop, he can't deny the same sort of cake to a gay couple.

On the other hand, he doesn't have to make or have made a cake with 'gay marriage is approved by God' on it. But if he would do a cake with a representation of the couple on top and both their names if they were straight, Antonio has to do the same thing for a gay couple in a state that requires it.

[brewer]

So I have two lawyer parents, and I’ll speak as they would.

There are two types of products, commodity products where everyone gets the same product and creative products. A commodity product is something like serving everyone who comes into your restaurant, or selling a pair of jeans to anyone who comes into your store. By law you cannot deny a commodity product to a person. It gets a bit more complicated, involving protected classes and compliance with conduct rules, but for the sake of this point if you sell an item you must sell to anyone who wants to buy it.

A creative product is a bit different. This is generally things like a graphic designer or a sculptor. You can’t compel a sculptor to make something they don’t want to, and you can’t force a graphic designer to make something they find offensive.

The dispute is over whether or not a cake is a commodity or a creative product. But the consensus is that pre-made cakes are a commodity. It is also that most common form cakes are also commodities. If you have a pre-made wedding cake for sale, that is a commodity and you have to sell it to anyone. If you make plain birthday cakes for one group you have to sell those cakes to anyone who comes in.

The legal dispute is if custom wedding cakes are creative or commodity products. And I dunno. A cake that is formula or pre-made is a commodity, and you have to sell it to anyone. But a custom cake is in a bit of a legal grey area. But I think that allowing discrimination of one group by a for profit business is a bad precedent.

If the business promotes making and selling custom/creative cakes based on customer preference ("..if you can think it up Jack can make it.." from the website), sounds like a commodity to me.

http://masterpiececakes.com/

[Natachan]

That’s why this is a legal grey area. How much was the baker responsible for? How much is just a form order for his clients? Where do we draw that line? If the baker has a book of cakes he makes, those are commodity products and he has to make them for anyone. And if a customer says ‘I want a three tiered devils food cake with chocolate buttercream frosting and piping along the tiers and frosting roses with tiers of diameters 18”, 14”, and 10”’ is that a custom creation or has the customer asked for a series of commodity products? I would argue in this case the cake would be a commodity and the baker would have to sell to them.

But what if the customer leaves it to the baker? Is that a commodity? Is it a creative product? If you rely upon their artistic knowledge I would argue that is a creative product. But if you come in and are very specific and only rely on the bakers time then I would argue that is a commodity.

[The Grand Nudger]

Every burger made to order would be "artistic".

"Sorry, the sandwich artists here at McDonalds don't serve black people...you'll have to go to wendys for that". Wendys, for it's part, doesn't serve asians....you have to go to burger king. Burger king won't serve caucasians.

None of them serve teh gayz...no homo, no homo, no homo.

Wouldn't want to offend the delicate sensibilities of all of those "artists", lol.

[Deesse23]

Nope, you're making up more nonsense.  Also, in June 2018, our Supreme Court ruled in favor of the baker.

Argument from authority, does that mean you are out of (your own) arguments now?

P.S.: Thx for reminding me why i am glad not to live in the US.
Note: I agree with the commodity/creative argument. However not with people flat out discriminating against minorites, and certianly not because some internet idiot doesnt know shit about biology.

[Fake Messiah]

And yet I thought this topic would be a discussion about how much cakes do atheists eat at holidays and I even scoffed myself for not opening this kind of lighthearted topic.
So you can imagine my surprise when I read FP.

Anyway, this is not the first topic about this and why was this about atheism? The thing is that the baker is Homophobic. He also thinks that Muslims and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus are going to hell and yet baked for them because it's about homophobia and not religion. He is simply using religion to hide his real issue.

[The Grand Nudger]

It didn't rule in favor of the bakers right to discriminate, in point of fact.....but hey, what are facts anyway, we've got some bigoted bakers to bat for!

[T0 Th3 M4X]

Nope, you're making up more nonsense.  Also, in June 2018, our Supreme Court ruled in favor of the baker.

Argument from authority, does that mean you are out of (your own) arguments now?

P.S.: Thx for reminding me why i am glad not to live in the US.
Note: I agree with the commodity/creative argument. However not with people flat out discriminating against minorites, and certianly not because some internet idiot doesnt know shit about biology.

It's a fact Jack.  There is no other appeal.

7-2 ruling and the crybabies can't request a do-over.  That's what's known as justice.

---

It didn't rule in favor of the bakers right to discriminate, in point of fact.....but hey, what are facts anyway, we've got some bigoted bakers to bat for!

They didn't discriminate.  It's called "vindication."  They were cleared of the faulty claim against them.

[Natachan]

The difference between a custom cake and a burger is that a burger isn’t really a custom creation. As in my description of the customer coming in and pointing to a cake in a catalog or telling them all the details, these are commodity products. Likewise a burger is a commodity. It’s beef on a bun. The claim the McDonald’s would try to discriminate in this way is laughable especially, since the burgers are made on a conveyor belt (essentially).

[The Grand Nudger]

That's just what those elitist cake snobs say, Nata. If we open the door for one asshole..we can't really complain when a horde of them pile the entrance.

That's why our courts keep punting this one.