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RE: If it wasn't for religion
January 30, 2019 at 4:45 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2019 at 4:48 pm by Acrobat.)
(January 30, 2019 at 4:39 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: (January 30, 2019 at 4:31 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Perhaps because you keep contradicting yourself, and refuting your own previous suggestions:
Let see:
ME: “Reality possess “the stuff of morality”, which our minds can perceive, but exists independently of them, exists objectively.”
You: Nope. Goodness and badness are not "stuff" floating around out there.
You just now: Yep, moral goodness and badness exist independently of our minds.
Here's a good example dear readers, why I accuse atheists views of morality of being contradictory and self-refuting. It may be a clear example of why you make the accusation..but it's just as clear an example of that accusation being baseless.
That's kindof the problem, lol? No, I don't think that morality is a stuff out there floating around and settling on shit, and I also think that goodness and badness exist independent of our minds....and? What about those two statements do you think is contradictory or self refuting?
Who said anything about goodness and badness floating around out there? What I said was that this exists independent of our minds.
And you responded with a "Nope".
And then changed it to a "Yep."
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RE: If it wasn't for religion
January 30, 2019 at 4:45 pm
(January 30, 2019 at 11:43 am)Acrobat Wrote: I also don’t need to touch the cup to acknowledge its objective existence, seeing is sufficient. Even off-hand I can think of at least a half-dozen ways to make you think you "see" a cup that isn't there.
--
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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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RE: If it wasn't for religion
January 30, 2019 at 4:55 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2019 at 4:58 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 30, 2019 at 4:45 pm)Acrobat Wrote: (January 30, 2019 at 4:39 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: It may be a clear example of why you make the accusation..but it's just as clear an example of that accusation being baseless.
That's kindof the problem, lol? No, I don't think that morality is a stuff out there floating around and settling on shit, and I also think that goodness and badness exist independent of our minds....and? What about those two statements do you think is contradictory or self refuting?
Who said anything about goodness and badness floating around out there? What I said was that this exists independent of our minds.
And you responded with a "Nope".
And then changed it to a "Yep."
...?
Acro..anyone can read my responses to your questions, so it doesn't really help to make shit up, lol.
Yes, I think that goodness and badness exist independant of our minds, no, I don't think that goodness and badness are "stuff"? Which is what I -just- told you. What you -just- quoted, which was a repetition of what I'd already told you, and already had to quote myself on multiple times.
Either you can explain why you think this is contradictory, or you can't.
I'm teetering on the dividing line between thinking that you're just confused for some inexplicable reason...and thinking that you're a lying piece of shit. Gratz.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If it wasn't for religion
January 30, 2019 at 5:01 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2019 at 5:10 pm by Acrobat.)
(January 30, 2019 at 4:45 pm)Dr H Wrote: (January 30, 2019 at 11:43 am)Acrobat Wrote: I also don’t need to touch the cup to acknowledge its objective existence, seeing is sufficient. Even off-hand I can think of at least a half-dozen ways to make you think you "see" a cup that isn't there.
Sure, by the sort of optical illusions magicians use, or etc.... But i have no reason to think the cup I'm seeing in front of me now is such an illusion. I have no reason to doubt my perception here.
(January 30, 2019 at 4:55 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: ...?
Acro..anyone can read my responses to your questions, so it doesn't really help to make shit up, lol.
Yes, I think that goodness and badness exist independant of our minds, no, I don't think that goodness and badness are "stuff"? Which is what I -just- told you. What you -just- quoted, which was a repetition of what I'd already told you, and already had to quote myself on multiple times.
Either you can explain why you think this is contradictory, or you can't.
I'm teetering on the dividing line between thinking that you're just confused for some inexplicable reason...and thinking that you're a lying piece of shit. Gratz.
Okay, I think I get it. Goodness and badness are not "stuff", they're are mental designations of what acts belong to conceptual sets and why we think so?
Does that sound right?
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RE: If it wasn't for religion
January 30, 2019 at 5:12 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2019 at 5:14 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Hey, you got it, and all you had to do was repeat my previous response word for word. Imagine that, lol.
Can you explain what you think is contradictory or incoherent or delusional about that?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If it wasn't for religion
January 30, 2019 at 9:16 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2019 at 9:18 pm by Acrobat.)
(January 30, 2019 at 5:12 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Hey, you got it, and all you had to do was repeat my previous response word for word. Imagine that, lol.
Can you explain what you think is contradictory or incoherent or delusional about that?
Okay so, you believe Goodness and badness are not "stuff", they're are mental designations of what acts belong to conceptual sets and why we think so.
And that these mental designations exist independent of our minds, as a part of objective reality. Or in other words in your view reality possess mental properties?
If not can you explain how mental designations have an existence independent of minds.
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RE: If it wasn't for religion
January 30, 2019 at 9:25 pm
(January 30, 2019 at 9:16 pm)Acrobat Wrote: (January 30, 2019 at 5:12 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Hey, you got it, and all you had to do was repeat my previous response word for word. Imagine that, lol.
Can you explain what you think is contradictory or incoherent or delusional about that?
Okay so, you believe Goodness and badness are not "stuff", they're are mental designations of what acts belong to conceptual sets and why we think so.
And that these mental designations exist independent of our minds, as a part of objective reality. Or in other words in your view reality possess mental properties?
If not can you explain how mental designations have an existence independent of minds.
It's like 2 + 2 = 4. It is so no matter what anyone thinks about it, yet it doesn't mean there is a literal 2 or 4 out there.
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RE: If it wasn't for religion
January 30, 2019 at 9:42 pm
(January 30, 2019 at 9:25 pm)Grandizer Wrote: (January 30, 2019 at 9:16 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Okay so, you believe Goodness and badness are not "stuff", they're are mental designations of what acts belong to conceptual sets and why we think so.
And that these mental designations exist independent of our minds, as a part of objective reality. Or in other words in your view reality possess mental properties?
If not can you explain how mental designations have an existence independent of minds.
It's like 2 + 2 = 4. It is so no matter what anyone thinks about it, yet it doesn't mean there is a literal 2 or 4 out there.
2+2 = 4, is just another way of saying if you have two dollars, and I give you two more dollars, you’d have four dollars.
So two is literal here.
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RE: If it wasn't for religion
January 30, 2019 at 11:07 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2019 at 11:31 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 30, 2019 at 9:16 pm)Acrobat Wrote: (January 30, 2019 at 5:12 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Hey, you got it, and all you had to do was repeat my previous response word for word. Imagine that, lol.
Can you explain what you think is contradictory or incoherent or delusional about that?
Okay so, you believe Goodness and badness are not "stuff", they're are mental designations of what acts belong to conceptual sets and why we think so.
And that these mental designations exist independent of our minds, as a part of objective reality. Or in other words in your view reality possess mental properties?
If not can you explain how mental designations have an existence independent of minds. Familiar with reference? Realist semantics implicitly carry an assumption of referential realism. Put simply, a mental designation may only exist in a mind (and this is true pretty much by definition) - but that places no such restriction on it's referent.
So long as the mental designations..that only exist in our minds, carry existent referents beyond them, they are taken to be objective and "real" - those that don't, aren't. It's an interesting distinction, because the things that really exist in our minds and only in our minds are also real, but not in the sense important to realist moral propositions. We generally consider those sorts of propositions subjective, facts of a person x and not a matter x.
Trivia, at this point..since you're fishing. Don't you think it might have been prudent to actually wait until you found some contradictory, incoherent, or delusional thing before so loudly proclaiming that they must exist on account of how I'm an atheist? I take it that you couldn't figure out what was supposed to be contradictory, incoherent, or delusional about that last statement, since we've moved on to butchering another set of statements in search of the same? You even managed to butcher your own question in the process. It would be "if so, can you explain how mental designations have an existence independent of minds", not "if not". If not, then there would be nothing to explain.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If it wasn't for religion
January 30, 2019 at 11:21 pm
(January 30, 2019 at 9:42 pm)Acrobat Wrote: (January 30, 2019 at 9:25 pm)Grandizer Wrote: It's like 2 + 2 = 4. It is so no matter what anyone thinks about it, yet it doesn't mean there is a literal 2 or 4 out there.
2+2 = 4, is just another way of saying if you have two dollars, and I give you two more dollars, you’d have four dollars.
So two is literal here.
Two is a descriptor of quantity here. You're not really seeing a two there in the concrete sense, but you see objects about which you can say there are two of them based on your perception and interpretation of similarity and separation between these objects.
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