The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?

[Epimethean]

It isn't actually about teaching them. Sociopaths and true psychopaths do not learn. They don't grow even when out in society. It is about removing a threat. the issue I find here is that, were one of these individuals breaking into your house, I should hope that none of you would have an issue disposing of them in the most expeditious way possible. Certainly, were one of them to be menacing you or a loved one, you would be well advised to dispose of them.

They don't get better, and in general, they don't feel remorse for what they have done. this isn't about them hating being locked up as much as it is getting rid of a threat that has no purpose save being a threat.

Crimes of passion? Sure, keep the appeals process (though it needs change in a bad way). Premeditated murder by a man who wanted to get rid of someone he hated? Keep hm locked up while he appeals, and maybe for the maximum time. Catching a psychopath after a string of murders: Execute the fucker.

[ElDinero]

With the technology we have today (forensics, DNA, video cameras, etc...) we can be nearly 100% certain that the accused is guilty.

I'm coming into this thread late, and this post is from like the third page, so apologies if this has already been talked about.

There's two things about the above statement that I don't like. Number one is that it's a lie, and number two is that it isn't good enough.

Firstly, I believe I read that in the USA alone, about 1 in 5 executions are later found to be in error. That's a staggeringly high number. So forget this notion that we can be 'nearly 100% certain'. Secondly, even if it were true, I wouldn't be any more impressed. 'Nearly' 100% isn't close enough whatsoever. One incorrect execution is too many.

To me, none of it matters terribly because I am completely opposed to the notion of a death sentence. But to say it's a good idea because it's a reliable system is just provably false.

[reverendjeremiah]

It isn't actually about teaching them. Sociopaths and true psychopaths do not learn. They don't grow even when out in society.

Why must people "grow" in society? Why cant they just remain the same? And by what standard is this growth measured by? How is this nothing more than total opinion?

It is about removing a threat.

..and putting them in jail removes that threat

the issue I find here is that, were one of these individuals breaking into your house, I should hope that none of you would have an issue disposing of them in the most expeditious way possible. Certainly, were one of them to be menacing you or a loved one, you would be well advised to dispose of them.

that is self defense, which is NOT the same thing as the death sentence. Even when I did support the death sentence, I knew the difference and made sure not to mix the two. In your situation, I would very much fight for my life. But how does someone strapped to an executioners chair equal the same thing as self defense?

They don't get better, and in general, they don't feel remorse for what they have done. this isn't about them hating being locked up as much as it is getting rid of a threat that has no purpose save being a threat.

Thats highly generalized. Surely you have some figures to post that supports your claim?

Crimes of passion? Sure, keep the appeals process (though it needs change in a bad way). Premeditated murder by a man who wanted to get rid of someone he hated? Keep hm locked up while he appeals, and maybe for the maximum time. Catching a psychopath after a string of murders: Execute the fucker.

So we teach the people that its wrong to kill people by killing people?

[Epimethean]

If a human cannot develop as a human, and if it has been clearly demonstrated to be a threat to human life (serial killers come to mind), cannot function in some way in the fabric of society, either use them for science or put the fuckers out of our misery. I'm sure the families of the victims of serial killers and rapists generally feel great that they are just rotting away. Tell ya what: If one of them raped or killed someone I loved, I'd kill him and melt the fucker down. There is a crossroad at which we can say that kinder and gentler is better. This doesn't strike me as that place.

Here's food for the thoughts regarding recidivism.

http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociop...lence.html

http://human-nature.com/nibbs/01/psychopathy.html

"The recidivism rate of psychopaths is roughly double that of non-psychopathic offenders ..."

Fuck that "teach people not to kill by killing people." I'm not jesus, and that sort of peace, love and understanding goes out the window with repeat rapists and killers. As I said, this particular aspect is not about "teaching" a lesson any more than killing off an ant colony is about teaching ants not to come into your house.

[ElDinero]

One of the main things that sets us apart from psychopaths is our compassion. It's a slippery slope, because as soon as you acknowledge that there are some cases in which it is permissible, people will use that for their own ends and push it further and further.

[Epimethean]

One of the things that sets us apart from psychopaths is also the wisdom to know why diseases need to be cured, not nurtured.

[reverendjeremiah]

One of the things that sets us apart from psychopaths is also the wisdom to know why diseases need to be cured, not nurtured.

But the topic is "Death penalty"

Are you trying to suggest that the death penalty is some kind of cure for psychopathy?

Im sorry, but Im having a hard time following you.

[Autumnlicious]

It's simple. Epi is advocating that we dispose of what he has deemed human trash.

He seems to forget that the definitions of trash are nothing but variable when it is commonly expected to hold beliefs in something conceptually significant without cause (e.g. "God").

What I find most damning about Epi's statement is that he basically advocates the death penalty for the mentally ill and disabled (Psychopath -- A person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior).

It just happens that the ones he happens to dislike are 'psychopaths' and are near universally reviled in a social species such as ours.

Never mind that they are broken humans that should not be left unmonitored.

I find the stigma of mental illness to be truly exasperating sometimes...

Then again, I often wonder if a lot of criminal behavior is mentally unsound to begin with...

[reverendjeremiah]

It's simple. Epi is advocating that we dispose of what he has deemed human trash.

He seems to forget that the definitions of trash are nothing but variable when it is commonly expected to hold beliefs in something conceptually significant without cause (e.g. "God").

What I find most damning about Epi's statement is that he basically advocates the death penalty for the mentally ill and disabled (Psychopath -- A person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior).

It just happens that the ones he happens to dislike are 'psychopaths' and are near universally reviled in a social species such as ours.

Never mind that they are broken humans that should not be left unmonitored.

I find the stigma of mental illness to be truly exasperating sometimes...

Then again, I often wonder if a lot of criminal behavior is mentally unsound to begin with...

Quite frankly that is what I got from epi...I just didnt want to say anything until he clarified.

[Epimethean]

Hardly, gents. If you like to spend time rubbing disease-ridden feces into open sores, very fine. If you expect me to say that is wise or sensible, you won't get it. It has zero to do with "whom I like." It has everything to do with being wise enough to say, "this thing has done no good for the human race and has harmed it on multiple occasions: Time to remove the threat permanently."

We can masturbate about the costs and the "injustice" of the system as long as we want. Perhaps it is because I have worked with that element of society (as a sheriff's deputy, corrections officer, probation officer), so I have seen the reality of it a bit more closely than many of you who sit in your houses, saying, "oh, but we dare not judge another human being to merit disposal even though it has raped or killed multiple other human beings." I dunno. Good for you to be such high minded, kind hearted individuals, but you won't be the guys stepping up to apologize when that piece of shit does it again, will you? You'll say, "well, there is this other kind of therapy we can try," or, "lock him up forever (as if that is a good solution in such cases: just build more prisons, because, if you do, they will come. Neat!) because that way we don't have blood on our hands."

I have seen too many people killed or horribly injured by people who should have been removed utterly from the planet to take such a mild mannered tack. It's a sweet illusion, and I gave it up years ago.