Search for Causes

[Ranjr]

Lek Wrote: [url=https://atheistforums.org/post-1951060.html#pid1951060][/url]If I'm hungry and see an apple hanging on a tree and I see other people picking and eating the apples and walking away fine, I'll go pick an apple and eat it.  I do this because I truly believe that those are really apples hanging on the tree and it's been reinforced by others eating them and being okay.  I'm not going to say that there may really not be an apple tree there because sometimes people think they see and touch something, but it's not real, but a hallucination.  Then I'm not going to walk away because it might not be real, even though I really believe that it is real.

I was hiking last September in an area of the Boston Mountains with no trails, just the overgrown roads of loggers and settlers.  I saw a tree with an odd fruit, which had the size and color of a cherry but the pit of a plum.  I ate one and decided it was a wild plum, often called a sand plum.  It grew on an east facing slope beneath oak, hickory and other 50-100 year old hardwoods.  It had to be a remnant of agricultural activity, like many of the disappearing roads.  It was hard to believe the animals hadn't cleared it of fruit before I found it.  

I didn't need to watch other people's experience because I already knew what a fruit tree looks like.  I ate a few more and filled an empty thermos with the them.  Later, I used them to make plum infused vodka.  Though finding the tree was out of the ordinary, I don't think it was a result of divine guidance.  I could see the natural processes at work.  It never entered my mind that the tree wasn't real.

[Lek]

I'd say yes.  We all have intuitions.  These things aren't knowledge, obviously, and we all know that.  Even the moist sainted christian believer will still..at least, experience what's been referred to as the long dark night of the soul.  The state of wanting to concede to our intuition, needing to..even, but being unable to do so.  

Lek, as an example, knows that he doesn't talk to god. He knows that god doesn't talk to him.  Not in english, not at all.  In fact, he personally knows that despite, in spite, or regardless of his beliefs, god is frustratingly silent.  This silence and ambiguity positively compels us.

All of us.

Well, I have had "dark nights of the soul" and I have considered atheism.  Honestly, I would have to forcefully cast off what I believe to be true in order to become one.  I also see atheism as too limiting.  I prefer to be open to all possibilities, which has allowed me to experience God more fully.

[The Grand Nudger]

You've ha them, sure..but you've never "considered atheism" - because it isn't something that people consider. You're drifting into christianese again.

It's an open question as to whether or not you're actually more open than the average joe, or even the average atheist, and whether or not this openess, however conceptualized, has allowed you to experience any god at all, let alone more fully.

I strongly doubt this to be the case, based on every interaction that I've ever had with you. You know absolutely nothing about god. You've never had the slightest brush in with one, and if you had, you'd probably be disappointed, and reject it.

My advice to you would be to pray much, much harder than you ever have. Every moment you spend bullshitting people, here, is that much more distance between yourself and christ.

[no one]

Lek:
I also see atheism as too limiting.

Is that just an overhauled regurgitation of Pascal's wager?

[possibletarian]

I'd say yes.  We all have intuitions.  These things aren't knowledge, obviously, and we all know that.  Even the moist sainted christian believer will still..at least, experience what's been referred to as the long dark night of the soul.  The state of wanting to concede to our intuition, needing to..even, but being unable to do so.  

Lek, as an example, knows that he doesn't talk to god. He knows that god doesn't talk to him.  Not in english, not at all.  In fact, he personally knows that despite, in spite, or regardless of his beliefs, god is frustratingly silent.  This silence and ambiguity positively compels us.

All of us.

Well, I have had "dark nights of the soul" and I have considered atheism.  Honestly, I would have to forcefully cast off what I believe to be true in order to become one.  I also see atheism as too limiting.  I prefer to be open to all possibilities, which has allowed me to experience God more fully.

I've had what i considered 'Dark nights of the soul' too, most religions say they have similar experiences, hell even as an atheist i have had them, they are not proof of anything.

If by atheism being too limiting you mean you can no longer indulge in free for all fantasy's about all powerful gods making everything good in the end, then you are right atheism (lack of belief in all that) does take that away from you.

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If I'm hungry and see an apple hanging on a tree and I see other people picking and eating the apples and walking away fine, I'll go pick an apple and eat it.  I do this because I truly believe that those are really apples hanging on the tree and it's been reinforced by others eating them and being okay.  I'm not going to say that there may really not be an apple tree there because sometimes people think they see and touch something, but it's not real, but a hallucination.  Then I'm not going to walk away because it might not be real, even though I really believe that it is real.

Try that with an invisible, immaterial tree. that reveals its 'appleyness' to human hearts. Your example is an best silly, at worse dishonest.

[Lek]

Atheism takes away my ability to recognize God in the universe. I've also learned a ton of stuff from ancient to modern religions that has enlightened me tremendously. There's a tremendous amount to learn from the experiences, knowledge and traditions of mystics throughout the ages. Cultures have always largely been about religion.

[possibletarian]

Atheism takes away my ability to recognize God in the universe.

Well yes of course, but if there is no 'god' in the universe then what do you gain ?

I've also learned a ton of stuff from ancient to modern religions that has enlightened me tremendously.

Enlightened you about what ?
If it's not true then in what way is it enlightenment ?

There's a tremendous amount to learn from the experiences, knowledge and traditions of mystics throughout the ages.  Cultures have always largely been about religion.

There is tremendous amount to learn, that much is true, but if it isn't true, aside from feeding fantasy of what use is it ?

[The Grand Nudger]

Atheism takes away my ability to recognize God in the universe.  I've also learned a ton of stuff from ancient to modern religions that has enlightened me tremendously.  There's a tremendous amount to learn from the experiences, knowledge and traditions of mystics throughout the ages.  Cultures have always largely been about religion.

That would be phenomenally unlikely.  Atheism doesn't take away our ability to see anything that you see, and it doesn't do a thing to you, either.  We both see an apple, to use your earlier example.  It's a state of belief, not a communicable disability, lol. Oh..but...we both know you were slipping into pious prattle again, don't we.

There's alot in our various myths and fables that's worth knowing, and I can't help but notice that you don't seem to have absorbed any of what's worth knowing in your own chosen set of fairy tales.  Twice now you've told us about your being enlightened.  Let's see some of that?

[LadyForCamus]

Your reasoning is still circular, Lek. Can’t you see that you’re setting your self up for confirmation bias? If you start with praying to god for a sign, then you’re going to interpret everything that happens after the fact as exactly that, rather than through an objective lens. And, then you’ll conclude god was the most likely cause. That is erroneous reasoning.

When you try to determine the cause for anything is one of your considerations that it was caused by supernatural means?

I like to think I keep an open mind. But, the problem with considering the supernatural as a cause, is that no one can tell me what a supernatural thing actually is, and why it is disqualified from the category of ‘natural’. As far as I can tell, the best description of the supernatural we currently have is, “some event that occurred in the natural world that we don’t have an explanation for yet.” How am I supposed to evaluate whether it’s likely or not that the cause of some phenomenon was supernatural when I don’t even know what it is, or what evidence of it would look like? If the only evidence for a supernatural cause is the lack of a natural explanation...well...that’s no evidence at all. It’s just an argument from ignorance fallacy. Lek, if you can’t test for the supernatural, why would you even consider it a possibility?

[Simon Moon]

If I had an experience which I sincerely believed was God talking directly to me, how would I be able to prove or disprove what I believe?

Personal revelation is by definition, unprovable, and first person.To everyone else they are hearsay. But there are so many natural explanations, that are much more likely as explanations.

You can't rationally even consider a god to be candidate explanation, without demonstrating that a god is even possible as an explanation.

If I had advanced stage cancer and it suddenly disappeared or went into remission, how could it be proven to be from natural, rather than supernatural causes?

Again, the supernatural has be proven to be a candidate explanation. How would you even begin to demonstrate that all possible natural explanations have been eliminated before even considering the supernatural?

Not to mention, when medical scientists test cancer cures on rats, a certain small percentage of the control group will, for unknown reasons will go into remission, without any treatments. Is the rat god curing these rats?

If natural science was unable to determine the cause, what method could I use to determine if the origin or cause of these was supernatural? Should I pursue other avenues or rely on science to eventually come up with an answer?

Argument from ignorance fallacy.

Just because your remission might be currently unexplained, dies not in any way, give more credence to a supernatural explanation.

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Gods or the supernatural don't win by default as explanations for anything, just because a natural explanation is unknown.

In the history of human history, anytime an actual explanation has been found for something previously though to have a supernatural explanation, the actual explanation has always been natural.