Search for Causes

[no one]

That's because there is no supernatural.

[Lek]

If I'm hungry and see an apple hanging on a tree and I see other people picking and eating the apples and walking away fine, I'll go pick an apple and eat it.  I do this because I truly believe that those are really apples hanging on the tree and it's been reinforced by others eating them and being okay.  I'm not going to say that there may really not be an apple tree there because sometimes people think they see and touch something, but it's not real, but a hallucination.  Then I'm not going to walk away because it might not be real, even though I really believe that it is real.

[no one]

When you say apples, you really mean mushrooms, right?

[Lek]

When you say apples, you really mean mushrooms, right?

I think it's clear who's consuming the mushrooms.

[The Grand Nudger]

Some of us don't have any use for the category Lek. The same way that you wouldn't have much use for "natural" if you could pick a stream and clearly articulate the contents of your beliefs.

To give you an idea of why this is....what would you call a magical creature made out of magical essence? Natural, or magical? Magic book asserts that we, and not only we..but the entire universe is just such a creature. Created in an act of magic, with magical essence, by a magical agent.

You can use supernatural there if you want - but I bet you'd rankle at the suggestion. Well, I use natural in much the same way. Cancer going into remission? Natural. An existent god making cancer go into remission...still natural. No one begins with the premise that there is no supernatural. That would fly in the face of all of human history and even childhood development. We simply have to make peace with the failure of the supernatural as a concept. If a god is important to us, it might also be important not to let the failure of that concept become the failure of our favored deity.

Then again, it's up to you what you decide to saddle god with. Maybe a natural god just wouldn't be enough for you, even though it created an entire natural universe......some of which we see, most of which,m we probably can't.

: shrugs :

[no one]

This guy:
When you say apples, you really mean mushrooms, right?

Lek:
I think it's clear who's consuming the mushrooms.


Is that a yes?

[Mr.wizard]

If I'm hungry and see an apple hanging on a tree and I see other people picking and eating the apples and walking away fine, I'll go pick an apple and eat it.  I do this because I truly believe that those are really apples hanging on the tree and it's been reinforced by others eating them and being okay.  I'm not going to say that there may really not be an apple tree there because sometimes people think they see and touch something, but it's not real, but a hallucination.  Then I'm not going to walk away because it might not be real, even though I really believe that it is real.

The difference is you can get independent verification that the tree is real. I could not believe in the tree but you could show me the tree, i can touch the tree, I can pick an apple from the tree, i can watch other people interact with the tree,the tree doesnt require me to believe it' s real before I can see it. If you could do anything close to that with God we wouldnt even be having this conversation.

[The Grand Nudger]

Thing is, he could. He really...really could. He couldn't do it with all of the pageantry of his religion......but he could certainly describe those experiences to which he's using christianese to refer.

-and you would know as much about them as he did. It's a shared experience.

[no one]

Honestly, is it actually a search when you have the conclusion in advance?

[The Grand Nudger]

I'd say yes. We all have intuitions. These things aren't knowledge, obviously, and we all know that. Even the moist sainted christian believer will still..at least, experience what's been referred to as the long dark night of the soul. The state of wanting to concede to our intuition, needing to..even, but being unable to do so.

Lek, as an example, knows that he doesn't talk to god. He knows that god doesn't talk to him. Not in english, not at all. In fact, he personally knows that despite, in spite, or regardless of his beliefs, god is frustratingly silent. This silence and ambiguity positively compels us.

All of us.