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Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
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Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
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It gives me comfort to visit these sites from time to time. The OP shows an ignorance of Christian theology and just basic crude reasoning. In Catholic theology, and in other churches, grace, free will and predestination combine to effect salvation or damnation. That is basic Christian theology and you should know what you're talking about before you spout off. There is no excuse for your ignorance as what I have just informed you of is readily and easily available.
And you are doubly wrong. I've never read Plantinga but I would be very surprised if he said free will is the only source of human suffering. I've never read a Christian writer who did say such an obviously foolish thing. Why doesn't that occur to you? As I read through these posts I do get comfort. I can honestly say, I have never talked to or read an atheist who doesn't demonstrate his or her ignorance of Christianity and some really poor thinking besides.
Do you agree with Platingas suggestion that god was incapable of creating a better world than this one?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(February 6, 2020 at 5:22 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: Do you agree with Platingas suggestion that god was incapable of creating a better world than this one? I haven't read his argument. I only know this fellow's name and not his ideas. And 'better' is pretty ambiguous. Generally speaking, God is under no compulsion to create the best of all possible worlds in the sense that human suffering would be kept at a minimum. The kind of arguments you can read in C S Lewis. God is under no compulsion to create at all. God could have created us all as angels not humans. Angels have no material bodies and don't suffer pain.. Not from illness or natural disasters or car accidents or... lots of stuff like that. They don't die. But even with material beings I am persuaded that God could have created a world which would be less painful for us and other animals. He didn't and where was I when He created the roots of the mountains. Let's say you imagine God created a world where the weather is always like California or the Caribbean. Without the earthquakes or hurricanes. You could then imagine a world where something else and something else beyond that is better. In fact, He has created a world where death and tears are no more. Human souls are there now and , at the General Resurrection, will be there with their glorified bodies. But that is to say He did not create us to be in Heaven from the start. One of the false, almost always unexamined premises, in these arguments from pain is that, given God's nature He has to create the best of all possible worlds. But He doesn't and that is the view of a lot a very good theologians like St. Thomas. RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
February 6, 2020 at 11:39 am
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2020 at 11:44 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You reject platingas argument in the strongest possible terms by insisting that god did make such a world, and that this world isn't that world.
His contention was that god not only did not, but could not create a world with free will, absent of moral evil.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
LastPoet
 Leader of the gang of jerkoffs(tm)  Religious Views: L'Uomo verrà portato dalla sua creazione
That, "the best of all possible worlds" fits the mind of who said it.
RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
February 6, 2020 at 11:22 pm
(This post was last modified: February 6, 2020 at 11:32 pm by ColdComfort.
Edit Reason: Added last line
)
(February 6, 2020 at 11:39 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: You reject platingas argument in the strongest possible terms by insisting that god did make such a world, and that this world isn't that world. God made a world where the issue of human salvation or damnation is played out. We have free will although that is not the only factor that determines our eternal fate. Predestination and grace are other factors, if factors is the right word. But given free will than moral evil is inevitable. If that is all Platinga is saying than, sure, God could not have given free will with one hand and eliminated human cruelty with the other. Not in this world anyway. But then there is the pain not caused by human free will. I find claims that human suffering caused by illness or natural disasters will produce something positive in the future kinda dodgy. Like your faith will grow stronger or something like that. Maybe. Maybe not. People get bitter too. And then there is the issue of the pain of non human animals. In The Problem of Pain C. S. Lewis admitted to being stumped on this one. Non-human animals don't go to Heaven or Hell. That's the general view anyway. They just die. So pain can have no redemptive or spiritual value. My own personal view is pain in this world often does not matter. A lot of it is just random and meaningless. Like other animals I avoid it. But it's temporary. It comes to an end. I think God could have created this world with a lot less physical pain. He could have created six thousands years ago and eliminated the long course of evolution which clearly involved a lot of physical pain. I don't think there is any logical impossibility in this. But He didn't. So I'm on the side of those who do not think God created the best of all possible worlds.  (February 6, 2020 at 11:22 pm)ColdComfort Wrote: My own personal view is pain in this world often does not matter. A lot of it is just random and meaningless. Like other animals I avoid it. But it's temporary. It comes to an end. Not chronic pain which can last for decades. It is estimated that over 40% of Americans suffer from chronic pain and one fifth of them will suffer it for more than 20 years. Chronic pain affects more people than cancer, heart disease, and diabetes combined. It can be hugely debilitating.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
(February 7, 2020 at 12:00 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:(February 6, 2020 at 11:22 pm)ColdComfort Wrote: My own personal view is pain in this world often does not matter. A lot of it is just random and meaningless. Like other animals I avoid it. But it's temporary. It comes to an end. Well Fake I don't mean to be heartless or anything but I was talking about death. (February 7, 2020 at 12:18 am)ColdComfort Wrote:(February 7, 2020 at 12:00 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Not chronic pain which can last for decades. It is estimated that over 40% of Americans suffer from chronic pain and one fifth of them will suffer it for more than 20 years. Chronic pain affects more people than cancer, heart disease, and diabetes combined. It can be hugely debilitating. So you are ok with pain that lasts for decades as long as person dies at the end.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
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