Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity

[The Grand Nudger]

-and there we have an example where currently existing christians have different ideas on god and moral systems.

Now, personally, I think that you're all nutbars...but if I ask you about some article of the other nutbars faith, and you respond with some diatribe about ignorance, you could only be referring to their ignorance, accurately related to you. Most of the time, when you guys pop in imagining that you're correcting atheists, you're just telling us that other christians are full of shit.

[John 6IX Breezy]

I don't know why you think Christians can't disagree. The apostles disagreed and argued with each other. Jesus himself, although he always submitted to the will of the Father, has moments where he expressed his desire for a different outcome.

What I see happening with you is a phenomenon foundational to the psychology of prejudice. The brain tends to create in groups and outgroups out of relatively little information. As long as there is some commonality, the brain divides people into us and them. What's more is that it tends to attribute certain assumptions to each group. It tends to overestimate the diversity of the in group and underestimate the diversity of the out group.

Perhaps that is why you look at Christians and seem somewhat fascinated to discover there is diversity of opinion and belief within the faith.

You also seem to think that if two religious people disagree, or even two Christians, that their disagreement cancels out leaving atheism as the winner. I disagree with atheists as much as I disagree with Mormons. Why is that an issue?

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't have any such idea you loon, lol. I know that you disagree, on everything. What goes through your head before posts like this?

[John 6IX Breezy]

Normally something catches my attention, such as why whenever I say something you can't really argue against, you tend to draw a circle around me. Perhaps it's easier to treat me as an outlier rather than avoid changing your stereotyped notion of what Christians believe.

I don't know, point is I find things like that interesting and then play around with possible explanations.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, John. Would you like to point to any specific item or grievance, or is this a throwaway complaint?

As I mentioned last post, and in every post before that, I already know that any christian stereotype is pointless. Let's recall, I mentioned that you and Comfort don't agree with each other. OFC you don't.....no more than either of you agrees with plantinga..... No one but you is unsatisfied with this. You, in Comforts estimation, are a fucking heretic. Plantinga would consider you a simpleton.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Well that's my point; you mention that we don't agree as if we're supposed to. I don't expect you and Boru to agree on everything, so its not worth mentioning when I see inconsistencies between you two.

Its the need to mention we don't agree that I find interesting.

[The Grand Nudger]

You're right, it's hardly worth pointing out that a bunch of people who can't agree on shit...don't agree on shit.

It's still unclear what goes through your head when you post the shit you've been posting. WTF are we even talking about right now, what's wrong with you?

[John 6IX Breezy]

We're just parsing apart and discussing your way of thinking, that's all. Nothing particularly interesting.

EDIT: Just wanted to add a reference to my previous statement. The first shows that even the most minimal of conditions can create ingroups and outgroups and their associated biases. The second is research on the outgroup homogeneity effect, which biases people to see their group as more diverse than outgroups. Enjoy

Reference: Tajfel, H. (1969). Cognitive aspects of prejudice. Journal of Social Issues, 25(4), 79–97
Linville, P. W., Fischer, G. W., & Salovey, P. (1989). Perceived distribution of the characteristics of ingroup and out-group members: Empirical evidence and a computer simulation. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 57, 165–188.

[ColdComfort]

Welcome back.  You can find plantingas argument here.

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Plantinga+free+will+defense

Or, if you'd prefer the lf of the boards, here-

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

Or, if you like a quick wiki link..here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plan...ll_defense

Well thanks. That's polite as I get.  I think I'll download one of his books as I'm not sure what the fuss is about. There must be more to it as it's not a particularly original thought. And it doesn't contradict Christianity unless he's saying all suffering is due to free will which is stupid. And professors never say stupid things. 

One thing got me thinking though and that was from one of his critics. God could maximize the conditions so that human freewill would be less likely to chose moral evil. Take serial killers like Ted Bundy. He was not insane in any legal sense. He knew what he a doing was evil and he had a choice not to commit his crimes. I read a biography of him years ago and you can't point to anything in his upbringing that would produce a guy like that. He associated sexual pleasure with the torture of young women! There must have been something wrong with his wiring. How his brain developed. And there appears to be a least some other men who are like that.


God could easily have prevented his brain developing in that way and not in any way interfere with his free will. So not the best of all possible worlds God could have made.  

There are a lot of similar things. Addictions, I have read somewhere, may have a genetic foundation. God could change the gene. No interference with free will. You could come up with plenty of other examples but I think you get the drift.

Just to forestall those ho may misunderstand. Nothing I say here mitigates how evil Ted Bundy was. The desire to torture women and find sexual pleasure in it is one thing. To act on it another. For all we know there are men who seek help or otherwise do not act on the same desires.

[ColdComfort]

 You, in Comforts estimation, are a fucking heretic. 

I don't think I ever said that.