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RE: My argument for atheism +
March 15, 2020 at 11:53 pm
(March 7, 2020 at 6:50 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: (March 7, 2020 at 6:15 pm)snowtracks Wrote: Mind first, then brain. That's the sequence that conforms to the Principle of Causality; as stated, Cause is always (yes always) before, and greater than the effect. Got any evidence for that claim?
ALL of the evidence indicates that mind is a result of a functioning brain. All of it.
In contrast, there is no evidence for any mind absent a physical brain, none. Mind is beaucoup orders of magnitude greater than the brain; therefore it's the cause so it came first. Just as consciousness is to unconsciousness. Just exactly what was that first thought that originated from a brain that was formed without any prior thought? That event would have to be the greatest ever. Well also, did the language to think that first thought develop within that unconscious brain?
And think, it all started when two stones decided to go conscious after ions had elapsed.
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RE: My argument for atheism +
March 16, 2020 at 8:35 am
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2020 at 8:36 am by The Grand Nudger.)
It's not clear what you mean by greater, or that mind and brain are not one and the same, or why being "greater" would make one thing the cause of another.
You then go on to ask the question of what the first thought that originated from a brain was...but if thoughts originate from brains.....
Conscious stones?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: My argument for atheism +
March 16, 2020 at 10:19 am
(March 15, 2020 at 11:53 pm)snowtracks Wrote: And think, it all started when two stones decided to go conscious after ions had elapsed.
Two rocks went conscious?
You know one really has to wonder what compels Christians who only have caricature notions about evolution, abiogenesis, biology and mineralogy, to think "Aha! Today I'm going on internet to teach atheists something I know nothing about."
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: My argument for atheism +
March 29, 2020 at 2:26 pm
(March 16, 2020 at 8:35 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's not clear what you mean by greater, or that mind and brain are not one and the same, or why being "greater" would make one thing the cause of another.
You then go on to ask the question of what the first thought that originated from a brain was...but if thoughts originate from brains.....
Conscious stones? The Principle of Causality states that the cause always preceded the effect, the cause has the sufficiency to explain the effect, the cause is always greater than the effect since it initiates the transaction. Example: a popsicle stuck in the sand at the beach at a 120-degree racked to the ocean has windblown sand that accumulated on it, then sand slides down when a sufficient clump is formed and breaks loose. Wind power, gravity, (causes 1,2) an avalanche (effect) of sand.
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RE: My argument for atheism +
March 29, 2020 at 2:48 pm
(March 16, 2020 at 10:19 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: (March 15, 2020 at 11:53 pm)snowtracks Wrote: And think, it all started when two stones decided to go conscious after ions had elapsed.
Two rocks went conscious?
You know one really has to wonder what compels Christians who only have caricature notions about evolution, abiogenesis, biology and mineralogy, to think "Aha! Today I'm going on internet to teach atheists something I know nothing about."
"I have determined, after extensive surveying, tabulation, and data analysis, that the average creationist in the US earns $21,387.29 in family income; owns 1.2 cars; 1.8 TV's, and 2.3 kids; and has, at some stage answered to the name "Bubba". He has less than one year of college. Yet he knows more about paleontology than Bakker or Horner (or he thinks that what they know is wrong--same thing). He knows more about the definition of evolution than Gould or Dawkins. He knows more about Biology than Dobzhansky or Mayr. He knows more about cosmology Hawking, Smoot or Witten and more about fossils than Jhanson or the Leakeys. He knows more "true" geology than geologists, more psychics than physicists, more astronomy than astronomers--and more about everything than atheists like Asimov or Sagan"
Anon
Miserable Bastard.
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RE: My argument for atheism +
March 29, 2020 at 3:27 pm
I hope those two rocks spoke the same language. I mean imagine:
rock1: Hey I think therefore I am
rock2: No entiendo
rock1: Gooby pls
I guess we have to wait another ion (SIC) for another two rock to go conscious.
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RE: My argument for atheism +
March 31, 2020 at 7:26 pm
(This post was last modified: March 31, 2020 at 7:30 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(March 29, 2020 at 2:26 pm)snowtracks Wrote: (March 16, 2020 at 8:35 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's not clear what you mean by greater, or that mind and brain are not one and the same, or why being "greater" would make one thing the cause of another.
You then go on to ask the question of what the first thought that originated from a brain was...but if thoughts originate from brains.....
Conscious stones? The Principle of Causality states that the cause always preceded the effect, the cause has the sufficiency to explain the effect, the cause is always greater than the effect since it initiates the transaction.
That's not what the principle of causality states.
Quote:The Principle of Causality. The concept of causality, determinism. ... Causality is a genetic connection of phenomena through which one thing (the cause) under certain conditions gives rise to, causes something else (the effect). The essence of causality is the generation and determination of one phenomenon by another.
Notice the lack of any insistence on "greater" causes - a term you've employed without definition twice. We'll call it the snowtracks principle, instead. -Which is fine.
If the snowtracks principle is true - then brain is "greater" than mind, causes mind, and is a sufficient explanation of mind.
You need to insist that mind is "greater" than brain...but if mind comes from brain... which it demonstrably does...and which you've assumed as well by wondering about the first thought originating from a brain...then the cause does not have to be "greater" than the effect. This is the fun sort of nonsense you get yourself into when you try to rationalize your ridiculous superstitions.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: My argument for atheism +
April 19, 2020 at 10:26 pm
(March 31, 2020 at 7:26 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: (March 29, 2020 at 2:26 pm)snowtracks Wrote: The Principle of Causality states that the cause always preceded the effect, the cause has the sufficiency to explain the effect, the cause is always greater than the effect since it initiates the transaction.
That's not what the principle of causality states.
Quote:The Principle of Causality. The concept of causality, determinism. ... Causality is a genetic connection of phenomena through which one thing (the cause) under certain conditions gives rise to, causes something else (the effect). The essence of causality is the generation and determination of one phenomenon by another.
Notice the lack of any insistence on "greater" causes - a term you've employed without definition twice. We'll call it the snowtracks principle, instead. -Which is fine.
If the snowtracks principle is true - then brain is "greater" than mind, causes mind, and is a sufficient explanation of mind.
You need to insist that mind is "greater" than brain...but if mind comes from brain...which it demonstrably does...and which you've assumed as well by wondering about the first thought originating from a brain...then the cause does not have to be "greater" than the effect. This is the fun sort of nonsense you get yourself into when you try to rationalize your ridiculous superstitions.
A Mind is greater than any brain; consciousness (same) unconsciousness, thinking (same) non-thinking.
Atheist Credo: A universe by chance that also just happened to admit the observer by chance.
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RE: My argument for atheism +
April 19, 2020 at 11:22 pm
(This post was last modified: April 19, 2020 at 11:27 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Not if thoughts come from brains.
Quote:Just exactly what was that first thought that originated from a brain that was formed without any prior thought?
These were your rules...you insisted.
Quote:the cause is always greater than the effect since it initiates the transaction.
I want you to know that I absolutely agree with you. Thoughts originating from brains is the greatest thing that ever happened..though I probably would say that, as a thought originating from a brain. Still, I don't think that the application of the snowtracks principle is having the intended effect. It might need careful rephrasing.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: My argument for atheism +
April 20, 2020 at 1:10 am
(April 19, 2020 at 11:22 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Not if thoughts come from brains.
Quote:Just exactly what was that first thought that originated from a brain that was formed without any prior thought?
These were your rules...you insisted.
Quote:the cause is always greater than the effect since it initiates the transaction.
I want you to know that I absolutely agree with you. Thoughts originating from brains is the greatest thing that ever happened..though I probably would say that, as a thought originating from a brain. Still, I don't think that the application of the snowtracks principle is having the intended effect. It might need careful rephrasing. Intended to be facetious - " Just exactly what was that first thought that originated from a brain that was formed without any prior thought?"
Atheist Credo: A universe by chance that also just happened to admit the observer by chance.
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