Is there free will in heaven?

[Shell B]

God has nothing to be forgiven for. He is sovereign over His creation. 150k people die every day, and God allowed all of those deaths to happen. Whether He judged a city for its wickedness, or whether He took someone out of the world when they're 80, no one dies before their time. In every case, He decides the time. There is no difference between what you say is unforgivable and what happens every day.

Fuck you.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, what happens everyday is the result of our environment (natural disasters) our society (crime, war etc) and our biology (death and disease). That's what happens everyday in the real world. I can't hold a grudge against a tornado because it isn't a thinking being can I?

A thinking being flooding the earth in xenocidal rage is in no way equivalent to this. Cursing babies with boils and eventual death for the indiscretions of their parents is in no way equivalent to this. Turning women into pillars of salt is in no way equivalent to this. I could go on and on and on.

Maybe you don't feel that you have a right to question tyranny or despotism, and there are people out there that would love to have you join their cause if you feel that way, but I do question these things. Don't make me Godwin this thread. Claiming that "god has nothing to be forgiven for because he is sovereign" is the tired old might makes right bullshit, and I'd love to see you apply that to an earthly dictator. Ironically I agree with you, in part. God doesn't have anything to be forgiven for, because your god doesn't exist. It's his followers that get to shoulder the atrocities that actually did happen in his name. Not some bullshit flood etc. That you waive away imagined acts of depravity as A-OK (while believing that they did occur) doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in the notion that his followers aren't willing to repeat the nasty shit they've already done.

[lucent]

The law is not proof that someone deserves punishing. It is proof that the moral majority believe it deserves punishing.

If there were no law there would be no basis for punishment. The law is there to set a standard of behavior, and if you don't live up to that standard, you suffer the consequence. It is indeed proof.

Indeed. I would go on to add that the circumstances should have something to do with it as well. This is part of the reason we have courts -- not a single judge, jury and executioner.

It's all arbitrary, ultimately. There is always a final authority to every system.

We are not talking about moral justifications. We are talking about freewill. Justification or not, he will be punished, as would I have been, had I been caught. That being said, I do believe most murder is inherently wrong. Either way, I am free to do it, if I so choose. Repercussions come after the fact.

Of course you're free to do it. We're talking about whether you deserve to be punished for it. The law says you do.

Um, you are equating laws with morals and legal behavior with moral behavior. Your inability to follow a conversation is absurd. You brought law into it. It shouldn't be that hard for you to keep up.

Your standard for moral behavior is that you can break laws you disagree with, and that you would break more laws if you felt you could get away with it. That's called anarchy (ie, absurd). It doesn't change the fact that you deserve to be punished for breaking those laws.

Oh, really? A murderer being punished for murdering someone is a little different than me burning in hell for all of eternity for lust or some other such stupid bullshit.

It's no different in our example. You know what the law is and you break it anyway, and your disagreement with it doesn't excuse you from the consequences.

Besides, I do not disagree with god's laws so much as I disagree with the laws your holy goatherders made up and called god's laws. Lucky for me, the bible also says a little something about judging people. See you in hell, bitch.

The bible does not say not to judge, it says not to judge hypocritically. I won't be there and I hope you won't either.

Misinterpret much? I. AM. AN. ATHEIST. There is no god to give me what I want. I get it. I work for it. I know what I want. If god knew better than me and loved me to death the way you thumpers think he does, a whole lot of shit would turn out awesome for me, despite me never knowing I needed it. That has yet to happen.

The world is a little bigger than what you put into and take out of your wallet to buy your way through life. There is a whole lot of work involved in making your life happen, things you know nothing about. He isn't trying to make your secular life "turn out awesome. You'd just go through life believing it was all due to something you did and get puffed up with even more pride. He is trying to get you to realize that you're not in control, and that until you come to Him, your life is out of control.

Superior knowledge about myself? Yes. Just because something is omnipotent, doesn't mean it gives a shit about my day to day life. Try not to be so ridiculous. The omnipotent being is your imagination. You want to think you are right for one of two reasons. 1. To know you haven't wasted all of this time abiding by laws that do not exist. 2. So you can feel superior to people who do not believe as you do and tell them they are going to be punished. It is interesting that, while most atheists find your viewpoint insulting, they do not make up eternities of torment to amuse themselves with. Sadistic much?

You can't even admit it even in a hypothetical. That's what we call denial. It is plainly obvious an omnipotent being would know better about what you need than you do. You're only aware of a small sphere of things happening around you, but God knows all of it, and will guide you through it.

Really? I could use a heart that functions properly. Looks like god doesn't care.

How would you know?

A. I am not a little kid. B. Kids do know things. Do you really treat all children like they don't know anything?

Compared to God you're a little kid, and yes kids do know things; more so than some adults. What I am talking about is wisdom, and for that you need experience (and God).

What? I do not believe my life is a series of accidents, you blankety blank. I see everything as the result of my activity, inactivity or a little thing called inevitability. If there were a god to fucking blame, I would be doing it. Trust me. I would shit on every Bible I ever saw if I believed in god. I would desecrate churches and swear at nuns. I am not joking.

Right, it's all about you. That's the delusion of atheism. Well, in a way you're right. The failings we have in this life are due to the stupid mistakes we make trying to do things are own way, thinking we can hash it out by ourselves. That's the way the world trains us to be. It's all vainglorious, it's all futility. We don't do anything for ourselves, that is the illusion. What we do is live every day on mercy and grace, owing each and every breath to forces beyond our control.

---

God has nothing to be forgiven for. He is sovereign over His creation. 150k people die every day, and God allowed all of those deaths to happen. Whether He judged a city for its wickedness, or whether He took someone out of the world when they're 80, no one dies before their time. In every case, He decides the time. There is no difference between what you say is unforgivable and what happens every day.

Fuck you.

Pardon?

[The Grand Nudger]

So god starves them and then we as human beings foot the bill to fix his fuck up. Why is this not surprising? Or does god starve them and then use us to foot the bill. Makes starving them seem kind of pointless, and the way he's going about it just screams ineptitude. Granted he's not completely incompetent, we don't really foot the whole bill so he still kills some of those worthless little shits. Am I right?

[Shell B]

If there were no law there would be no basis for punishment. The law is there to set a standard of behavior, and if you don't live up to that standard, you suffer the consequence. It is indeed proof.

No, it is not. We are not trying to prove that punishments happen. We are trying to prove that punishment is equal to just desserts.

It's all arbitrary, ultimately. There is always a final authority to every system.

Your ignorance is showing. A judge can not condemn a man if the jury finds him not guilty.

Of course you're free to do it. We're talking about whether you deserve to be punished for it. The law says you do.

Who gives a shit what the law says? Think for yourself. Do you think every crime deserved the punishment doled out for it in all of history?

Your standard for moral behavior is that you can break laws you disagree with

For moral behavior -- yes. That is not what we were discussing. Fuck, you mention one thing off topic with you nuts and it goes on for fucking days. We are talking about free will and deserving punishment! Not morals.

and that you would break more laws if you felt you could get away with it. That's called anarchy (ie, absurd).

No, it isn't. Besides, that is not what I said. I am certain that I could get away with breaking a number of laws that I wish did not exist. That does not mean I break them. An anarchist would break the law regardless of the punishment, by the way. If you need a dictionary or thesaurus, there are a number available online. I suggest you refer to them before you use the word absurd again.

It doesn't change the fact that you deserve to be punished for breaking those laws.

If I jaywalk to avoid being hit by a car, do I deserve the fine that comes with jaywalking?

It's no different in our example. You know what the law is and you break it anyway, and your disagreement with it doesn't excuse you from the consequences.

It's quite different. At any rate, I realize it does not excuse me from consequences, but do I deserve them? It's all subjective.

The bible does not say not to judge, it says not to judge hypocritically. I won't be there and I hope you won't either.

Actually, it just says not to judge. The word hypocrite is not there. Nice try, though.

The world is a little bigger than what you put into and take out of your wallet to buy your way through life.

Who the fuck is talking about my wallet? You really think that when I say everything I work for I am talking solely about money?

There is a whole lot of work involved in making your life happen, things you know nothing about. He isn't trying to make your secular life "turn out awesome. You'd just go through life believing it was all due to something you did and get puffed up with even more pride. He is trying to get you to realize that you're not in control, and that until you come to Him, your life is out of control.

He isn't real, psycho. Call me puffed up with pride again and this conversation will devolve rather quickly.

You can't even admit it even in a hypothetical. That's what we call denial.

Admit suggests that I would be ceding to something that is fact. That is not the case here.

It is plainly obvious an omnipotent being would know better about what you need than you do. You're only aware of a small sphere of things happening around you, but God knows all of it, and will guide you through it.

Allow me to explain this again, if god were real, I would want nothing to do with him. If he tried to guide me, I would spit in his face. However, he is not real, so we do not have to worry about that. Mind you, I am talking about your god, not just any god. Your hateful, spiteful god.

How would you know?

Because he isn't real and there are plenty of people who need things they do not have. Do not be obtuse for the sake of obscuring a shitty argument.

Compared to God you're a little kid, and yes kids do know things; more so than some adults. What I am talking about is wisdom, and for that you need experience (and God).

You're crazier than Stat.

Right, it's all about you. That's the delusion of atheism. Well, in a way you're right. The failings we have in this life are due to the stupid mistakes we make trying to do things are own way, thinking we can hash it out by ourselves. That's the way the world trains us to be. It's all vainglorious, it's all futility. We don't do anything for ourselves, that is the illusion. What we do is live every day on mercy and grace, owing each and every breath to forces beyond our control.

Stop using this thread to preach your sanctimonious bullshit to me. This is not the "lucent gets to preach" thread.

So you believe people who go to hell deserve it simply because they broke a law. That was easy. The rest is filler. From there, you believe that you have freewill in heaven, despite being forced to worship god constantly. Correct?

---

Fuck you.

Pardon?

I said, fuck you.

And please allow me to remind you of the repercussions of Christian "charity" in Africa. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-...itch_N.htm

[lucent]

Well, what happens everyday is the result of our environment (natural disasters) our society (crime, war etc) and our biology (death and disease). That's what happens everyday in the real world. I can't hold a grudge against a tornado because it isn't a thinking being can I?

A thinking being flooding the earth in xenocidal rage is in no way equivalent to this. Cursing babies with boils and eventual death for the indiscretions of their parents is in no way equivalent to this. Turning women into pillars of salt is in no way equivalent to this. I could go on and on and on.

Maybe you don't feel that you have a right to question tyranny or despotism, and there are people out there that would love to have you join their cause if you feel that way, but I do question these things. Don't make me Godwin this thread. Claiming that "god has nothing to be forgiven for because he is sovereign" is the tired old might makes right bullshit, and I'd love to see you apply that to an earthly dictator. Ironically I agree with you, in part. God doesn't have anything to be forgiven for, because your god doesn't exist. It's his followers that get to shoulder the atrocities that actually did happen in his name. Not some bullshit flood etc. That you waive away imagined acts of depravity as A-OK (while believing that they did occur) doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in the notion that his followers aren't willing to repeat the nasty shit they've already done.

It doesn't bother me for a few reasons. One, I know how wicked people are even when we have the pretense of civility. If you read history you find out pretty quickly that cultures were totally and completely brutal in those times. Cultures were annihilating other cultures at the drop of a hat. I don't blame God for dealing harshly with such brutal and wicked people, who had sex with their own childeen and sacrificed them to demons. Better that they were wiped off the map.

Two, because God is sovereign. He has the power of life and death, and He uses it all the time. about 150k times a day on each side of the coin. It's part of what He does to keep this thing going.

Three, because humans are still evil, and the reason there are starving children, as shell pointed out, is because of mans inequity. Atheists want to blame all of the worlds problems on God, but He created this thing perfect. We messed it up, and we keep messing it up. All God is doing is working to do undo the damage that we do every day. He isn't out to get us, He is out to save us. The blame for the evil in the world is at the feet of man, and the good things are from God. You get the two things confused.

[Shell B]

We're not blaming the world's problems on god, silly. We don't believe in god. We are saying that, if your god were real, he sucks worse than Hilter.

GODWIN! Beat you to it, Rhythm.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, I'm sure that the entire earth, and all the rats and shrews and pretty much anything that couldn't swim for a month was absolute evil. What times are you even talking about? You can't honestly be referring to an actual time because the biblical flood didn't happen in an actual time. Dream-time, maybe. Again, I don't blame any problems on god, your god doesn't exist. You're a loon.

Didn't want to continue with the might makes right shit? Now you have to make excuses for god...whatever happened to having nothing to be forgiven for due to being soveriegn. Maybe the earth didn't deserve the flood, so fucking what, god is soveriegn. Don't get soft on me now.

meanwhile.....what about all the evil ducks?

......................................................
Almost forgot, god's a kitten drowner.

[IATIA]

It bears repeating!

......................................................
Almost forgot, god's a kitten drowner.

[lucent]

It's quite different. At any rate, I realize it does not excuse me from consequences, but do I deserve them? It's all subjective.

Okay, let's just discuss this point. I agree with you, some laws are unjust and the punishments undeserved. That doesn't prove that Gods law is unjust. To prove that, you would have to prove God is a corrupt judge. I'm sure you think God has no right to judge you either. So let's talk about that. Why do you feel God is a corrupt judge, and does God have any right to judge you?