[Quranic Reflection]: The universe is expanding

[The Grand Nudger]

Winter also believes that magic book absolutely didn't include anything which it thought was the most accurate science of the day, word for word, from greeks.  

But those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are owners of hell-fire.

This is another clear scientific miracle in magic book.  Obviously referring to the united states and the manhattan project, 42-46'

Praise allah, and pass the ammunition!

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Aaron, my brother.

A-A-Ron!  John Walsh of Mahony City Penn. is credited by congress as having invented cable television in the spring of 1948.  How would a child raping iron age warlord have known?

Praise Allah, and I swear to christ if another one of you jokers mispronounces your name I will lose my shit!

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And verily in the heaven we have set mansions of the stars, and We have beautified it for beholders.

Man, this thing is spitting out scientific miracles back to back.  How could a demon possessed charlatan have known that telescopes in the 21st century would pick up alien mega-structures around distant stars?

Praise allah, and pass the probes.

[WinterHold]

You obviously mistake the Quran with an article about Nostradamus.
Please stay on track with what I answered with.

You're the one claiming that the Quran predicted the expansion of the universe long before Hubble did. That's entirely in line with Nostradamus.

No; the Quran didn't predict, it "asserted" and "told a fact" long before Hubble was even born.

Absolutely nothing in there about the universe or the expansion of space-time. Your interpretation isn't science, it's poetic license and post hoc rationalization. That's why not one single Muslim knew about the expansion of space-time until after Hubble did.

Post #52 in this topic tells the answer to your repeated point:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1984754

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The Quran states explicitly in this verse that the universe is expanding:




Scientifically, this couldn't be more true:

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150602-...iverse-end

I love science! This is why: It increases our knowledge of nature. The most current information is the best. Knowledge builds upon past knowledge. There is no need to deify older scientists. There were Atomists among the ancient Greek philosophers. They were right, in a way. They were wrong in other ways. No spooky god thing needed.

I love science too -being a computer scientist myself-.
It helps me understand the universe of God more.

[Peebothuhlu]

 The Quran didn't predict, it "asserted" and "told a fact" long before Hubble was even born.

Hello again WinterHold.

You seem to have missed my reply. Perfectly understandable with the sleet of posts you're receiving in this thread.

So, in regards to your comment that I've quoted/highlighted above, a reply to my question please?

        "What future predictions (Or assertions. Or told facts) does your book make about science or, perhaps, just the reality around us?" 

Cheers.

Not at work.

[WinterHold]

 The Quran didn't predict, it "asserted" and "told a fact" long before Hubble was even born.

Hello again WinterHold.

You seem to have missed my reply. Perfectly understandable with the sleet of posts you're receiving in this thread.

So, in regards to your comment that I've quoted/highlighted above, a reply to my question please?

        "What future predictions (Or assertions. Or told facts) does your book make about science or, perhaps, just the reality around us?" 

Cheers.

Not at work.

Hello to you.

Your previous question -which I answered fully- can be seen in your earlier reply here:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1984628

WinterHold said:

No. Jumping from your previous point which was about Pluto -or Frudo- to convert the Quran into an article about Nostradamus will not work as an argument.

You insist on treating the Quran as an article about Nostradamus, and I reject your point since it doesn't make any sense; the Quran is not a book of prophecies.

But there is this verse that describes what non-believers do when faced with Quranic verses:

Sura 17, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 89 )   And We have certainly diversified for the people in this Qur'an from every [kind] of example, but most of the people refused [anything] except disbelief.

( 90 )   And they say, "We will not believe you until you break open for us from the ground a spring.

( 91 )   Or [until] you have a garden of palm tress and grapes and make rivers gush forth within them in force [and abundance]

( 92 )   Or you make the heaven fall upon us in fragments as you have claimed or you bring Allah and the angels before [us]

( 93 )   Or you have a house of gold or you ascend into the sky. And [even then], we will not believe in your ascension until you bring down to us a book we may read." Say, "Exalted is my Lord! Was I ever but a human messenger?"

So..if I said right, you'll say left. If I say up, you will say down. If I say the sun shines you'll say no it doesn't.
So..Exalted is my Lord! Was I ever but a human believing in Mohammed's message?

[Peebothuhlu]

Hello again WinterHold.

You seem to have missed my reply. Perfectly understandable with the sleet of posts you're receiving in this thread.

So, in regards to your comment that I've quoted/highlighted above, a reply to my question please?

        "What future predictions (Or assertions. Or told facts) does your book make about science or, perhaps, just the reality around us?" 

Cheers.

Not at work.

Hello to you.

Your previous question -which I answered fully- can be seen in your earlier reply here:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1984628

No.

Again, NOT the previous question.

This question:

    "What future predictions (Or assertions. Or told facts) does your book make about science or, perhaps, just the reality around us?" 

Or you can answer with how well you understand the language/meaning/phrasing of the above question. Am I not clear with my words or how they are presented such that you do not understand the question above?

Edit: In fact, you've already agreed that I understand your opening post and point of view. So, for our conversation to move forwards I would like you to reply if you understand my question/point of view.

Cheers.

Not at work.

[Mister Agenda]

Or show us an English translation of the Quran from before 1929 that says 'expand'. That would be something, at least.

I translated the whole verse in page 1:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1983829

لموسعون

will expand it

Language never changes; MA. Literally, the word "اوسع-اجعله واسع" means "to expand".
Translate it with google too if you don't believe me:

https://translate.google.com/#view=home&...ext=expand

Here is a link for an Arabic-Arabic dictionary that includes ancient translations for the word too:

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D...%B3%D8%B9/

Allow me to quote:

وسَّع الشَّيءَ: صيَّرهُ واسعًا، كبَّرهُ، خلاف ضيَّقه
Expanded something: made it wide; made it bigger; opposite of made it narrow

• وسَّع ثروته: زادها،
  Expanded his fortune: increased it
  

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In slang , we say to an angry person: وسع صدرك which means literally "expand your chest"; i.e "become more patient/make your chest wider".

Yet, as I pointed out, until scientists discovered the universe was expanding in 1929, no English translation of the Quran used 'expand' for that verb, they typically used 'increase' or 'spread'. It was only after scientists discovered the universe was expanding that the word started being translated as 'expand'. You're no exception. It may seem obvious to you now, but it was not obvious to translators prior to 1929 who didn't know the universe was expanding.

[Paleophyte]

Absolutely nothing in there about the universe or the expansion of space-time. Your interpretation isn't science, it's poetic license and post hoc rationalization. That's why not one single Muslim knew about the expansion of space-time until after Hubble did.

Post #52 in this topic tells the answer to your repeated point:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1984754

Sorry, you provided no answer there. Let me be precise. Your translation, "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." arguably contains a single word that has anything to do with the expansion of the universe. Everything else is post-hoc conjecture and wishful thinking. If you wish to demonstrate otherwise then you need to show:

- Where does that passage refer to the universe? "Heaven" is not the universe.
- Where does that passage refer to space-time. Completely absent.

You can't do that because you're copy-N-pasting Muslim appaulogetics that you don't even understand.

Without that you might as well claim that Lincoln stole the Gettysburg Address from a hockey game because both contain the word "score".

[GrandizerII]

WinterHold, why doesn't this verse clearly state instead that it's revealing a remarkable scientific truth not yet known by humankind, and that is that Allah made the universe itself so that it is steadily expanding. Instead, I'm reading a verse that's stating something mundane, that the sky/heaven does look like it was stretched out widely with the credit for the expansion going to Allah. People in the days of Muhammad (and even before) weren't blind, they would've easily noted the "expanse" of the sky/heaven, just as they would've noted the "spread out" earth.

[Abaddon_ire]

<snip for brevity>

You are not quite understanding the problem.

All you offer is postdictions where you retcon scientific discovery into the magic book.

All you have is a great big shoehorn of fakery.

Have you a prediction from the quran to offer? If not then you have nothing.

[WinterHold]

I translated the whole verse in page 1:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1983829



Language never changes; MA. Literally, the word "اوسع-اجعله واسع" means "to expand".
Translate it with google too if you don't believe me:

https://translate.google.com/#view=home&...ext=expand

Here is a link for an Arabic-Arabic dictionary that includes ancient translations for the word too:

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D...%B3%D8%B9/

Allow me to quote:

---

In slang , we say to an angry person: وسع صدرك which means literally "expand your chest"; i.e "become more patient/make your chest wider".

Yet, as I pointed out, until scientists discovered the universe was expanding in 1929, no English translation of the Quran used 'expand' for that verb, they typically used 'increase' or 'spread'. It was only after scientists discovered the universe was expanding that the word started being translated as 'expand'. You're no exception. It may seem obvious to you now, but it was not obvious to translators prior to 1929 who didn't know the universe was expanding.

The word "expand" literally means "اوسع-اجعله واسع".
The Quran is the same since its ancient copies were known, and archeology proved that.

---

Post #52 in this topic tells the answer to your repeated point:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-61164-p...pid1984754

Sorry, you provided no answer there. Let me be precise. Your translation, "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." arguably contains a single word that has anything to do with the expansion of the universe. Everything else is post-hoc conjecture and wishful thinking. If you wish to demonstrate otherwise then you need to show:

- Where does that passage refer to the universe? "Heaven" is not the universe.
- Where does that passage refer to space-time. Completely absent.

You can't do that because you're copy-N-pasting Muslim appaulogetics that you don't even understand.

Without that you might as well claim that Lincoln stole the Gettysburg Address from a hockey game because both contain the word "score".

Heaven is the universe; calling it "space" or "outer space" or "the void" or "the vacuum" means nothing but that the reference is obvious: we're speaking about space here.

IDK about space/time.

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WinterHold, why doesn't this verse clearly state instead that it's revealing a remarkable scientific truth not yet known by humankind, and that is that Allah made the universe itself so that it is steadily expanding. Instead, I'm reading a verse that's stating something mundane, that the sky/heaven does look like it was stretched out widely with the credit for the expansion going to Allah. People in the days of Muhammad (and even before) weren't blind, they would've easily noted the "expanse" of the sky/heaven, just as they would've noted the "spread out" earth.

It refers obviously to God making the universe dynamic and expanding; not static as the pre-telescope world thought.

People in the past -especially Europeans- prosecuted whoever says the earth was round and not flat. No Grandizer; so many humans are indeed blind to this day. Take flat-earthers as an example.