That Gay Thread

[Huggy Bear]

First of all, who the hell are you quoting and why should I care for their opinion?

You quoted a meme and your scalding me for sources . But of course you can't offer up any actual objections to the post

I asked you to name your source... anyways your "source" is just one big contradiction.

I'll address your actual question about this 'buck breaking' practice first, though.

To get to the heart of the matter from the outset: no, the practice described in the article you linked to did not exist. This is literally the first that I have ever heard of this practice supposedly existing, and when I went digging around to try and see if I could figure out its origin story, I essentially found two versions of the story: the one that you've linked to, which is the milder of the two, and another which is more overtly homophobic and black nationalist in its rhetoric. Like most of these memes that go around the internet, there are absolutely grains of truth to the story, but the practice of "buck breaking" they're describing simply did not exist. I have never seen any evidence for it, I know of no-one who studies the dynamics of sexual abuse in slavery who has mentioned it and the idea of it being a wide-spread phenomenon is really quite ludicrous when you consider the wider historical context.

Your source claims to have never seen evidence for buck breaking, yet goes on to say.

That is not say that male-on-male sexual abuse did not occur. It absolutely did - and the very fact that we have historical records testifying to it in a period so hostile to same-sex activity is quite significant. Though they are fleeting, we do have references to the sexual abuse of male slaves by white male owners in the historical record; a handful of slave narratives (including Harriet Jacobs' Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl) contain references that seem to clearly refer to non-consensual, exploitative same-sex activity; at least one study of abolitionist rhetoric has identified how some strands of abolitionist thought tried to imply that there was an inherently homoerotic component to the exploitation of male slaves that could and did culminate in sexual abuse. Indeed, abolitionists went to great lengths to highlight sexual abuse as a particular, masculine act of depravity in general. Plantation owner Thomas Thistlewood quite notably made explicit reference to the practice in Jamaica even in the 1700s, when he briefly drew attention in his diary to news that another slave owner had been accused of committing sodomy with one of his male domestic servants. Sexual abuse was a defining feature of the institution of slavery, and though the vast majority of victims were women, the abuse of men by other men - as well as the abuse of men by women, and women of women - certainly occurred as well.
Fundamentally though, sexual exploitation in slavery was about more than physical gratification: it was about power. Rape and sexual assault were tools of violence, humiliation and dehumanisation just as much as the whip or the fist were. They were used both to realise and to express the power of the white slave owner over his or her black slaves. Male on male sexual violence was a means by which the incredible power of the slave owner could be demonstrated; to its victims living in a profoundly gendered society (and slave communities were strongly gendered even if in different ways to white society), it was a uniquely and profoundly humiliating act of violence that directly assaulted their masculinity and their dignity.

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State and local governments followed suit: bars catering to gay men and lesbians were shut down, and their customers were arrested and exposed in newspapers. Cities performed "sweeps" to rid neighborhoods, parks, bars, and beaches of gay people. They outlawed the wearing of opposite gender clothes, and universities expelled instructors suspected of being homosexual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_...%20Village

From your own wikki link

Once a week a police officer would collect envelopes of cash as a payoff known as a gayola, as the Stonewall Inn had no liquor license. It had no running water behind the bar—dirty glasses were run through tubs of water and immediately reused. There were no fire exits, and the toilets overran consistently. Though the bar was not used for prostitution, drug sales and other "cash transactions" took place.

The Stonewall clearly had all sorts of illegal activity going on and got raided by the police, but somehow it's a gay right issue?

[The Architect Of Fate]

You quoted a meme and your scalding me for sources . But of course you can't offer up any actual objections to the post

I asked you to name your source... anyways your "source" is just one big contradiction.

I'll address your actual question about this 'buck breaking' practice first, though.

To get to the heart of the matter from the outset: no, the practice described in the article you linked to did not exist. This is literally the first that I have ever heard of this practice supposedly existing, and when I went digging around to try and see if I could figure out its origin story, I essentially found two versions of the story: the one that you've linked to, which is the milder of the two, and another which is more overtly homophobic and black nationalist in its rhetoric. Like most of these memes that go around the internet, there are absolutely grains of truth to the story, but the practice of "buck breaking" they're describing simply did not exist. I have never seen any evidence for it, I know of no-one who studies the dynamics of sexual abuse in slavery who has mentioned it and the idea of it being a wide-spread phenomenon is really quite ludicrous when you consider the wider historical context.

Your source claims to have never seen evidence for buck breaking, yet goes on to say.

That is not say that male-on-male sexual abuse did not occur. It absolutely did - and the very fact that we have historical records testifying to it in a period so hostile to same-sex activity is quite significant. Though they are fleeting, we do have references to the sexual abuse of male slaves by white male owners in the historical record; a handful of slave narratives (including Harriet Jacobs' Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl) contain references that seem to clearly refer to non-consensual, exploitative same-sex activity; at least one study of abolitionist rhetoric has identified how some strands of abolitionist thought tried to imply that there was an inherently homoerotic component to the exploitation of male slaves that could and did culminate in sexual abuse. Indeed, abolitionists went to great lengths to highlight sexual abuse as a particular, masculine act of depravity in general. Plantation owner Thomas Thistlewood quite notably made explicit reference to the practice in Jamaica even in the 1700s, when he briefly drew attention in his diary to news that another slave owner had been accused of committing sodomy with one of his male domestic servants. Sexual abuse was a defining feature of the institution of slavery, and though the vast majority of victims were women, the abuse of men by other men - as well as the abuse of men by women, and women of women - certainly occurred as well.
Fundamentally though, sexual exploitation in slavery was about more than physical gratification: it was about power. Rape and sexual assault were tools of violence, humiliation and dehumanisation just as much as the whip or the fist were. They were used both to realise and to express the power of the white slave owner over his or her black slaves. Male on male sexual violence was a means by which the incredible power of the slave owner could be demonstrated; to its victims living in a profoundly gendered society (and slave communities were strongly gendered even if in different ways to white society), it was a uniquely and profoundly humiliating act of violence that directly assaulted their masculinity and their dignity.

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You quoted a meme and your scalding me for sources . But of course you can't offer up any actual objections to the post

Here's the second part

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[Silver]

Even though the show has become somewhat cheesy, though no where near as stupid as Z Nation, the best part of Van Helsing is the actor Jonathan Scarfe who I affectionately refer to as Daddy Axel.

[Huggy Bear]

I asked you to name your source... anyways your "source" is just one big contradiction.

Your source claims to have never seen evidence for buck breaking, yet goes on to say.

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[/hide]

Again, where did you get the quote?

1. You used a freaking meme 

2. You have not refuted anything he's written and i love how to chop his response up to make it look incoherent when all the stuff between more then explains it . Do you think people can't read and see what you did there ?

3. So overall no real response to his central argument . Just your sad attempt to crop what he wrote .

You're essentially plagiarizing by not crediting your source...

The meme didn't invent the term "buck-breaking" it's simply explaining the practice, there are plenty of reputable sources you can pull up on google.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Hmm my comments keep messing up so i'll rewrite here 

1. You used a freaking meme and demand sources from me 

2. You clearly chopped up the response .When comment clearly shows there is no contradiction . Throughout the article he covets what part of the buck breaking idea he objects too . So this framing is dishonest 

3. The fact illegal activity was going on was a pretext to shutting down a gay bar and harassing it's patreans  .The fact you don't get that is telling

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1. You used a freaking meme 

2. You have not refuted anything he's written and i love how to chop his response up to make it look incoherent when all the stuff between more then explains it . Do you think people can't read and see what you did there ?

3. So overall no real response to his central argument . Just your sad attempt to crop what he wrote .

You're essentially plagiarizing by not crediting your source...

The meme didn't invent the term "buck-breaking" it's simply explaining the practice, there are plenty of reputable sources you can pull up on google.

Nope I have not tried passing the quote as my own words or idea's so it's not plagiarism 

2. The description under your video 

Slavemasters used buck breaking which is the use of sex as a weapon to break down the slaves. It was used in Jamaica hence the hatred we may have developed over the years because of this practice here. So claims of being born homosexual is a LIE.

So there are scholarly  sources but you chose a youtube video by a homophobe instead lol

[Huggy Bear]

Hmm my comments keep messing up so i'll rewrite here 

1. You used a freaking meme and demand sources from me 

2. You clearly chopped up the response .When comment clearly shows there is no contradiction . Throughout the article he covets what part of the buck breaking idea he objects too . So this framing is dishonest 

3. The fact illegal activity was going on was a pretext to shutting down a gay bar and harassing it's patreans  .The fact you don't get that is telling

---

You're essentially plagiarizing by not crediting your source...

The meme didn't invent the term "buck-breaking" it's simply explaining the practice, there are plenty of reputable sources you can pull up on google.

Nope I have not tried passing the quote as my own words or idea's so it's not plagiarism 

2. The description under your video 

Slavemasters used buck breaking which is the use of sex as a weapon to break down the slaves. It was used in Jamaica hence the hatred we may have developed over the years because of this practice here. So claims of being born homosexual is a LIE.

So there are scholarly  sources but you chose a youtube video by a homophobe instead lol

The video clip is from one of the Hidden Colors documentaries, and for the most part the people in the documentary ARE scholars. The YouTube channel that posted it does not own it, so why is his commentary in the description relevant?

[The Architect Of Fate]

So you still choose a channel that used this as a means to bash gays so....Yeah kind of off

As for hidden colours oh dear ...Were to begin

[Huggy Bear]

So you still choose a channel that used this as a means to bash gays so....Yeah kind of off

As for hidden colours oh dear ...Were to begin

You've failed at refuting information so far, I'd love to see where you try to go with this one.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Nah i have refuted all you nonsense so far . You on the other hand 

posted a meme .Then claim scholarly sources while providing none .Then posted a clip on a clearly homophobic youtube channel  . The clip in question from a quack documentary directed by the guy who wrote this 







Yeah..... he seems to talk about the white LGBT community a lot 

And then there is this 
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/02/06/ta...up-artist/


On top of that you didn't refute what i link you just whined i didn't cite it so you didn't have to show how was wrong . Then chop his comment up and claim he was contradicting himself when he wasn't . Then you tried to accuse me of plagiarism which it isn't because i wasn't taking credit 


And this all starts with your flagrant denial the stonewall raids were motivated by gay busting a practice that was common at the time , And try and say they were about drugs and prostitution  . Even though the police themselves have acknowledged the raids were wrong . 

And all this atop your denial gay face any systematic discrimination when most definitely do

So no it's amusing watching you flail around

[Rev. Rye]

Just so everyone's clear, the source Sung cited was from the Ask A Historian Subreddit asking about how historically accurate your meme was. And, bear in mind, Ask A Historian has some damn high standards for what they'll keep.

To put the actual answer into perspective, since Huggy Bear's been taking paragraphs out of context to claim that the historian is saying "No, it's not real, but here's why it is," here's the conclusion, which explains it succinctly:

n conclusion then, yes, the meme you have encountered is largely fictionalised. Whilst the sexual exploitation of male slaves by white men and women alike was absolutely a real thing, as was the use of ritualised public humiliation and violence as a means of dehumanisation and asserting control, the exact phenomena this article describes strikes me as being quite fanciful. It is doubtlessly circulated with an ulterior motive and an agenda in mind, one that is probably tinged with homophobic sentiments. There is no shortage of very real trauma in the historical record when it comes to slavery - these real people who suffered so much injustice do not need to have, nor do they deserve to be demeaned by, us inventing more. We should likewise be careful not to impose our own modern ways of thinking onto the people of the past, for similar reasons - as historians we must try to understand these people somewhat as they understood themselves. Our own ideas about which boxes people should be placed into aren't very useful for doing that.

And, of course, the author supplies several sources.

So, to sum up:

• Male on Male Sexual Abuse between Massa and his male slaves was a thing that happened on occasion: Confirmed (though, it should go without saying that Massa-on-"N-word-called-a-Wench" sexual abuse was far more common.)
  
• Buck Breaking as described as in Huggy Bear's meme: Busted
  

And, frankly,  I should probably note that (as counterintuitive as it may seem) rape, especially in contexts like this where there's such an extreme imbalance of power, isn't even necessarily related to sexual orientation. Case in point, Oz:



When Schillinger (or Adebisi) rapes a male prisoner on the show, it's pretty explicitly about power and not because he just wants a piece of ass that bad, and what research I've done into the subject suggests this is how it generally works in the real world. Naturally, I strongly suspect that scenarios like this are far more common in prisons than on slave plantations.