Pyramid of Capitalism

[theVOID]

WOW... There are just TOO MANY problems with using a barter system at the core of a modern global economy that I have no fucking clue where to being!

............................................________
....................................,.-'"...................``~.,
.............................,.-"..................................."-.,
.........................,/...............................................":,
.....................,?......................................................\,
.................../...........................................................,}
................./......................................................,:`^`..}
.............../...................................................,:"........./
..............?.....__.........................................:`.........../
............./__.(....."~-,_..............................,:`........../
.........../(_...."~,_........"~,_....................,:`........_/
..........{.._$;_......"=,_......."-,_.......,.-~-,},.~";/....}
...........((.....*~_......."=-._......";,,./`..../"............../
...,,,___.\`~,......"~.,....................`.....}............../
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-"
............/.`~,......`-...............................\....../\
.............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__
,,_..........}.>-._\...................................|..............`=~-,
.....`=~-,_\_......`\,.................................\
...................`=~-,,.\,...............................\
................................`:,,...........................`\..............__
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``
........................................_\..........._,-%.......`\
...................................,<`.._|_,-&``................`

[reverendjeremiah]

WOW... There are just TOO MANY problems with using a barter system at the core of a modern global economy that I have no fucking clue where to being!

Yeah...well, one would include the EXCLUSION of world wide money exchangers

That would be problem number one

(note, the BIGGEST and RICHEST corporations and people avoid money exchangers and paper shufflers between each other)

The next problem would be LACK OF INTEREST (otherwise known as Usury)

(note, the BIGGEST and RICHEST corporations and people avoid chargers of usury and prefer to deal and barter directly with each other based on their acquired productions)

HMMM....

Gold closed today at $1,702.40 per troy ounce, and light crude oil closed at $98.01 per barrel.

Shut down the global reserve note (otherwise known as the American dollar) and what will happen?

Will they stop bartering?

Will trades in gold and crude oil suddenly stop once the monetary system is abolished? (along with all of its unnecessary paper and percentage pushers)

Will they be unable to decide the value of each, and agree upon an exchange?

Only Void can explain why

[paintpooper]

Back in the day... Money used to = gold. You would bring gold to a bank and get a note, that was backed by gold in the banks reserves. Then someone had a brilliant idea called fractional reserve banking and that let us spend beyond the actual gold in reserves, and create debt and the current fucky situation.
So in essence, the barter system has been around much longer then this fiat currency bullshit, and well as we can all see, this system of paper money backed by nothing, won't last forever.
We were trading gold for dollar notes then that dollar for a round of cheese, but at the core, we traded gold for the round of cheese = barter.

I myself personally advocate a "credit" system based on an individuals production to society. Nowadays a banker who fucks the most people reaps the most credits, but the guys picking the food we ALL need to survive gets shafted.

[Violet]

I reject both a barter system and money. They both imply that to gain something in a society: you must give back an amount deemed 'equal' to the amount you gained. This principle might seem like a fantastic basis for a society to you... but it is a principle that I spurn as selfish. Some people just can't bring themselves to provide for others freely... I beg those people not to start a family, as such is an informal co-op requiring one relinquishing what is theirs to the other members (at the least for a time) for it to function.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpb9EbmvM5M

The joyful pride of making something that 'works', the respect of others for providing them with things you make, a society entirely based on sharing and esteem and free cooperation. It is a place where someone may not have much... but where what they do have they can be proud of and where they may implore others freely for more should they wish to, and there are few restrictions placed upon them. Where a society in need of something can get together and outline how to resolve their need, on the entirely free labor of volunteerism.

Yes. There will be people who don't 'work' (at least not in the traditional sense of a 'job' where you get 'paid'. I don't 'work' right now, although building costumes is a lot of work). Does this bother you? I lived with a sister for 16 years who never did any work whatsoever, was a general slob, was bitchy as all fuck, and more of a drain than the other three people in the household put together. Sure, it would be nice if she helped out, even a little. But she doesn't have to do squat to remain family, to remain supported as such, to have friends who value her and will entertain her. I also lived with 2 extraordinarily hard-working parents. To whom carrying along a non-contributor was no burden to bear. I wasn't bothered with her not working... infact I stepped up even further to make my parents feel better about themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1KtScrqtbc

Why can't a farmer just grow his crop/animals because he wants to? It's hard work (that doesn't pay well in this mass-industrialization)... but it's work to be proud of, and it's highly appreciated in a community. How is it hard to see that an avid performer would continue to perform *without being paid AT ALL* so long as their basic needs were met? Really... if the only thing connecting you to your job in the first place is money: your priorities are very askew indeed. Even commercial set-gillnetting for sockeye salmon... a very demanding and difficult job that can at times be very dangerous... is one I find quite enjoyable. It's brutal, it's hard, it can be miserable... but it is satisfying, and I'm proud to do it and will be doing it every summer of my foreseeable life (and if I should ever forego the hardest parts... I would still go to assist in the operation in other ways)

It really is misguided to assume that a society would not function without a barter system, whether it be in common trade or trade goods... when just one person like me, who would work a job for simply the SATISFACTION, PRIDE, and SELF-RESPECT associated with doing it, can feed at least 10 others (and probably more like 40 were I given the gumption and assisting techs to do it (reason I refuse to match the beef industry's estimation of 129 is because I give a shit about the quality of my food and sustainability)).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a7cHPy04s8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_LQ4_MhDu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOUqQt3Kg0

And I see no reason outside of selfishness a society might desire a trading system. I believe mass-production to be a bad thing once one begins to forgo quality in favor of the increased quantity. I see globalized currencies and trades as misguided: why not simply sent the world our significant surpluses? It isn't as if we were using them. Certainly, global businesses that thrive on singular materials would have to expand their horizons and increase the quality of their now less common goods. Perhaps with money and bartering in all forms eliminated, such horrible industries that marginalize their workers and hold them deep in debt with their wage slavery would simply cease to exist, or at the least pull their practice back in to a more localized area.

I reject selfishness. There are times when I feel the need to lean upon others. There are other times when I am there for them and they can lean on me. Sometimes my depression gets to me, and I can't get out of bed. Other times I go the extra mile for weeks at a time. Ultimately, being appreciated is the best payment in the world... and it's a free bonus for doing something you were going to do anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPoTGyWT0Cg

And I resent a society that would require me to work to eat, to sleep in a bed, to have shelter, to have internet and electricity, to have reasonable plumbing and water... especially when it spends so much on petty squabbles with other nations without giving its own people this much. 195 billion a year (according to UN) to feed everyone on the planet. The US alone spent 650+ billion just in 2010 for its military. I don't resent it because I don't want to work (I do). I resent it because I know lots of people who also want to work, but can't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_bu...ted_States

Yes, it is true: people will work less when working is not mandated. Yes, it is true: mass industrialization will fail without the principles of greed and self-righeousness fueling it. I believe these both to be good things.

---

WOW... There are just TOO MANY problems with using a barter system at the core of a modern global economy that I have no fucking clue where to being!

And there are so many problems I see with our modern global economy that it irritates me greatly, and certainly does not leave me at a loss for words. These include marginalization of workers, a selfish basis of 'get back what you put in' that only works for those who have things to add to society in the first place, the lack of concern for the wellbeing of others such a system of cutthroat competition encourages, the near-impossibility of being a successful artist in a system that cares little for the arts, the utter shit that is an industrialized education system (so bad that we organize children into BATCHES like we do eggs), the job inflation with technology that ensures people will not have jobs (yet fails to provide for them with its mind-bogglingly huge surpluses that plenty often just go to waste), college degrees becoming suddenly worthless because of this job inflation, products quality level continuously deteriorating as companies dye their foods to hide their costumers from the shit they are (all the while buying out the facilities used to check on the quality of food)... and that is just what I INCLUDED.

There can be no reconciliation between me and this system, and there is no middle ground. Capitalism taints everything it touches with the effects of greed, because it is itself a greed-based system of an already self-righteous system of 'eye for an eye' monetary system that demands receiving for what one gives. And monetary communism is similarly demeaning when it requires people work for basics so unreasonably minuscule that they should scarcely be called 'basics'.

At the root of the entire system is a core that will not share the immense common wealth. And whatever you do with the rest of the pyramid, no matter how it is organized from there: you will always see problems created from the selfish hoarding holding the system up.

[reverendjeremiah]

Actually, what Lilly and paint trooper posted would also work in a syndicate society. Barter is merely ONE of the systems that can be used at the labor exchange. The biggest preference at a labor exchange is... you guessed it...the exchange of labor. Money might be accepted in this atmosphere as well, but is not REQUIRED...unlike the current American type suck ass capitalism which traps the majority of its citizens into using the ultimately worthless govt notes, with interest attached, and all the other paper pushers, credit scammers, etc attached as well.

[bozo]

Quite a tour de force from Lily and I applaud what is expressed.
I am a Socialist chiefly because I deplore excesses....of extreme wealth at one pole and abject poverty at the other.
I am anti-capitalist because its nature ensures these excesses will persist.
We are lucky to be living in a world of plenty.
I hope, that one day, we will all, every one of us, everywhere, have an equal share in it.

[reverendjeremiah]

Quite a tour de force from Lily and I applaud what is expressed.
I am a Socialist chiefly because I deplore excesses....of extreme wealth at one pole and abject poverty at the other.
I am anti-capitalist because its nature ensures these excesses will persist.
We are lucky to be living in a world of plenty.
I hope, that one day, we will all, every one of us, everywhere, have an equal share in it.

It will never happen as long as greed is glorified.

I remember singing this song in school in the mid 70's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxiMrvDbq3s

I asked my children if they have sung this song...they didnt even know what it was.

Woody is occupying the SHIT out of wall street right now, and his machine kills fascists!

[bozo]

Ahhh Woody Guthrie....what a man, what an inspiration!
And yet, I am given to believe his homeland would rather airbrush him out of history because of his Socialist ideas, which he so eloquently expressed in his music.
Love that song, especially the line about the no trespassing sign saying nothing on the other side, therefore that land " belongs to you and me "".

[kılıç_mehmet]

Quite a tour de force from Lily and I applaud what is expressed.
I am a Socialist chiefly because I deplore excesses....of extreme wealth at one pole and abject poverty at the other.
I am anti-capitalist because its nature ensures these excesses will persist.
We are lucky to be living in a world of plenty.
I hope, that one day, we will all, every one of us, everywhere, have an equal share in it.

What kind of excess are you talking about?
IS life all about your basic needs?

[bozo]

Quite a tour de force from Lily and I applaud what is expressed.
I am a Socialist chiefly because I deplore excesses....of extreme wealth at one pole and abject poverty at the other.
I am anti-capitalist because its nature ensures these excesses will persist.
We are lucky to be living in a world of plenty.
I hope, that one day, we will all, every one of us, everywhere, have an equal share in it.

What kind of excess are you talking about?
IS life all about your basic needs?

Are you struggling with the language or just dumb?
The obscenely wealthy at the top and the starving poor at the bottom.
Get it?