Maximizing Moral Virtue

[The Grand Nudger]

Moral, and morale, are not synonyms. Morals would only be synonymous with emotions if noncognitivism were true. If no moral statement purported any true or false thing about any subject, society, or object.

To violate morale, is to be a debbie downer.... but sure, to violate a moral standard is to violate some understanding of right and wrong which may or may not forbid hypocrisy or inflicting pain on another..and may or may not include justifications or exemptions from typical moral desert in the case of exclusively sub-optimal decision fields - but only if cognitivism is true and emotivism is false. I cannot, for example, violate your taste in ice cream. If you eat vanilla and think "Yum!" or "Yay!" and that's all you mean by a thing being morally right or morally wrong - my eating vanilla icecream and thinking "Yuck!" or "Not again!" does nothing to you, nor would my thinking yum or yay about chocolate ice cream be a violation of the same.

Emotivist moral virtues, as I commented on earlier in thread, really don't fit into the framework of maximizing anything. You already like what you like, dislike what you dislike. Maximizing virtue conceived of as nothing more than this is just being, I suppose, more of yourself.

[Angrboda]

I'm calling it. "Troll."

[h311inac311]

I'm calling it.  "Troll."

Why?

Is it because atheists don't actually like standing up for anything meaningful?

Is it because they can't construct a moral code at all? 
If education is valuable then when will the atheists rise up and take back our public education system which is starting to value gender theory over physics? 
What are you guys capable of accomplishing? What will you stand for? 
And how will this young movement prove itself to be more beneficial to the flourishing of human society than any religious system was in the past?

The way I see it, gravity (along with human morality) points down. Israel had every advantage, plagues in the name of freedom from Egypt (establishing YHWH's supremacy over every Egyptian god) a conquering hero (by the name of Joshua) and, when pressed, a wise king named Solomon. Yet, despite all of their advantages they looked at the borders of their land and said "but we want to be more like the pagans and less like the Hebrews." And so, their morality spiraled downwards into Idolatry, human sacrifice and a general lack of respect for any common law. Then, time and again they were punished for their misdeeds, some times by miracles and other times by conquering armies. Time and time again they were shown the error of their ways and still they backslid into rebellion and rampant immorality. The OT proves that human nature is flawed and only those who choose virtue over greed may obtain wisdom.

So I ask you guys, what will inspire you? What will keep you from the same fate as the Hebrews of the past? Or even that of the Catholic ministers of old who wished to conceal the way of truth by way of coercion and replace faith with a grand appeal to man made authority? What will stop your movement from being hijaked by Stalin? Endless debates on weather or not morality exists? Will this keep the progress of evil at bay? For how long?

[Mister Agenda]

I'm calling it.  "Troll."

Why?

Is it because atheists don't actually like standing up for anything meaningful?

Is it because they can't construct a moral code at all? 
If education is valuable then when will the atheists rise up and take back our public education system which is starting to value gender theory over physics? 
What are you guys capable of accomplishing? What will you stand for? 
And how will this young movement prove itself to be more beneficial to the flourishing of human society than any religious system was in the past?

It's because that's Angrboda's opinion.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think we're pretty safe from stalin. He hasn't gotten up to much lately.

Nothing prevents atheists in present from moral failure just as you note..at length..above, that nothing about being a believer prevented it in past. I have a question, what are gods supposed to have to do with right and wrong?

As to your question, I'm inspired by the example of theism - one long protracted demonstration of what not to do.

[h311inac311]

I think we're pretty safe from stalin.  He hasn't gotten up to much lately.

Nothing prevents atheists in present from moral failure just as you note..at length..above, that nothing about being a believer prevented it in past.  I have a question, what are gods supposed to have to do with right and wrong?  

As to your question, I'm inspired by the example of theism - one long protracted demonstration of what not to do.

Do you have any virtues? Or do you just have enemies? 

That was kind of the whole point of this OP, but it seems that you guys are more attracted to a war with someone else's imaginary friend than a fly is to shit.

So you haven't noticed all of the communistic rable rousing on campus lately? Or the useful anti-capitalist protests?
I submit to you that Karl Marx is indeed alive and well within our university system, and it was precisely this kind theological ignorance which lead to the original communistic revolutions to begin with. The people, being made to worship, rejected the old gods and chose to make a god out of man and well what did we get? Stalin, Mao, Lenin, and Marx, these men sought to make themselves into a god, deciding how markets should distribute themselves.

When did Jesus say that believing in God made you a good boy? It's not about belief it is about adherence to commandments, or, if you prefer, adherence to the moral virtue behind them.

To answer your question, it depends on which gods we're discussing, some are examples of what not to do, many are flawed, some are tragic but ultimately, the stories they tell us are meant to inspire men to their greater nature (much like our modern super heroes). Weather you believe in them or not truly isn't the question, but weather or not you guys have a solution that will inspire men to valor. 

It seems you are convinced that only theists do evil? How can that be? If evil isn't already within our own mind? Within our own nature? Are you really going to blame a collective belief in Harry Potter for all of the wrongs of the past? If your world view is true then why do you hate my imaginary friends so much? And, what will you replace them with?

"Wise men wonder while strong men die."

[The Grand Nudger]

Do you have any virtues? Or do you just have enemies? 

That was kind of the whole point of this OP, but it seems that you guys are more attracted to a war with someone else's imaginary friend than a fly is to shit.

So you haven't noticed all of the communistic rable rousing on campus lately? Or the useful anti-capitalist protests?
I submit to you that Karl Marx is indeed alive and well within our university system, and it was precisely this kind theological ignorance which lead to the original communistic revolutions to begin with. The people, being made to worship, rejected the old gods and chose to make a god out of man and well what did we get? Stalin, Mao, Lenin, and Marx, these men sought to make themselves into a god, deciding how markets should distribute themselves.

Go shout crazed maga shit at someone else.  This is about maximizing moral virtue..remember?  

When did Jesus say that believing in God made you a good boy? It's not about belief it is about adherence to commandments, or, if you prefer, adherence to the moral virtue behind them.

To answer your question, it depends on which gods we're discussing, some are examples of what not to do, many are flawed, some are tragic but ultimately, the stories they tell us are meant to inspire men to their greater nature (much like our modern super heroes). Weather you believe in them or not truly isn't the question, but weather or not you guys have a solution that will inspire men to valor. 

It seems you are convinced that only theists do evil? How can that be? If evil isn't already within our own mind? Within our own nature? Are you really going to blame a collective belief in Harry Potter for all of the wrongs of the past? If your world view is true then why do you hate my imaginary friends so much? And, what will you replace them with?

"Wise men wonder while strong men die."

I'm convinced of no such thing, and that's a glorious bit of projection given the op premise and your comments right here as well, isn't it?  I don't think evil is so much within our nature as within our ability - but that's a quibble over language, really, and I could point out to you that if it's in mans nature to do evil..if you believe this... it's no surprise than mans gods, described by men, are much the same.  Why the christian god, for example, believes that you can wash away evil by killing the better man. Or why it thinks it's some silly king and we all owe it something. Why it bombs cities, engages in biological warfare against the firstborn of egypt. etc...etc...etc....

For my part, my moral beliefs are quite a bit simpler and a whole lot less rapey. Don't harm, do help.

[Nay_Sayer]

I reject the op's initial premise. Why would I ever presume the lord FSM isn't real?

[The Grand Nudger]

-With all of this thread now behind us in reference and for comparison.

My main question is what should we do to ensure that our children inherit good moral values?

Theism seeks to convince, compel, or coerce a moral agent through the fear, majesty, or awe of a singularly authoratative divine entity. Dont harm, do helpism, in contrast, seeks to convince, compel, or coerce a moral agent through repeated first person interactions with other moral agents.

One is top down, one is bottom up. One is an appeal to external authority, the other an appeal to internal deliberation. Where the allegedly divine moral agent can only ever have it's sects own members as the practical labor for virtue building, the other conscripts all moral agents anywhere at all times.

In one, the virtue of virtue is a transactional relationship with the moral lawgiver, most often conceptualized as a tangible benefit - something they leave this world with. The golden ticket. However, in don't harm do helpism, this relationship is reversed. To paraphrase the prophet..Randy Travis, it's not what you take when you leave this world behind, it's what you leave behind you when you go.

So, how do we seek to ensure that our children inherit good moral values? Well, one way to do it, is to count on a fairy and it's army of witchdoctors to exert control over the levers of society. The other....providing a good example ourselves. We're the first moral agents our children will ever deal with, and the way we deal with each other leaves a lasting and profound impression which ripples out beyond even our own lives to touch people we never knew and never interacted with in ways we could not have imagined.

[Aegon]

I think we're pretty safe from stalin.  He hasn't gotten up to much lately.

Nothing prevents atheists in present from moral failure just as you note..at length..above, that nothing about being a believer prevented it in past.  I have a question, what are gods supposed to have to do with right and wrong?  

As to your question, I'm inspired by the example of theism - one long protracted demonstration of what not to do.

Do you have any virtues? Or do you just have enemies? 

That was kind of the whole point of this OP, but it seems that you guys are more attracted to a war with someone else's imaginary friend than a fly is to shit.

So you haven't noticed all of the communistic rable rousing on campus lately? Or the useful anti-capitalist protests?
I submit to you that Karl Marx is indeed alive and well within our university system, and it was precisely this kind theological ignorance which lead to the original communistic revolutions to begin with. The people, being made to worship, rejected the old gods and chose to make a god out of man and well what did we get? Stalin, Mao, Lenin, and Marx, these men sought to make themselves into a god, deciding how markets should distribute themselves.

When did Jesus say that believing in God made you a good boy? It's not about belief it is about adherence to commandments, or, if you prefer, adherence to the moral virtue behind them.

To answer your question, it depends on which gods we're discussing, some are examples of what not to do, many are flawed, some are tragic but ultimately, the stories they tell us are meant to inspire men to their greater nature (much like our modern super heroes). Weather you believe in them or not truly isn't the question, but weather or not you guys have a solution that will inspire men to valor. 

It seems you are convinced that only theists do evil? How can that be? If evil isn't already within our own mind? Within our own nature? Are you really going to blame a collective belief in Harry Potter for all of the wrongs of the past? If your world view is true then why do you hate my imaginary friends so much? And, what will you replace them with?

"Wise men wonder while strong men die."

Name a single commandment or virtue that requires a belief in God to learn and understand, that I can't learn on my own in a logical and secular fashion. Seriously. Name one.