Morality

[The Grand Nudger]

It's always fun to watch the faithful talk about the great fairy's many superpowers - but..it doesn't actually make a lick of difference to the metaethical question what a god does or doesn't know.

[emjay]

I don't deny the value of virtue ethics and suchlike as a philosophy in and of itself but how would you relate that sort of view to the Bible though?, as it's undeniable to me that the Bible does indeed contain a lot of arbitrary and immutable laws/rules. And what about context? 'Honour your father and mother' may make sense as a general rule, but not as an absolute rule; ie if hypothetically someone's parents are abusive, should they still honour them without question? It seems to me that, at best, the Bible can reflect some of morality/conscience, just as any other discussion about it could, but not in itself dictate it.

This was a tough one for me and a big part of the reason that belief didn't take.  Both my parents were abusive but I was supposed to honor them?  I begged, as a child, for god to either make them stop or to tell me what I had to do to make it stop.  It didn't stop.  It still hasn't stopped with my mother.  Dad and I made amends toward the end of his life but the scars still cause pain.  

Honoring someone who abuses you seems to be the core of religion.

I'm really sorry to hear that And also really sorry if I triggered bad memories by bringing it up

[arewethereyet]

This was a tough one for me and a big part of the reason that belief didn't take.  Both my parents were abusive but I was supposed to honor them?  I begged, as a child, for god to either make them stop or to tell me what I had to do to make it stop.  It didn't stop.  It still hasn't stopped with my mother.  Dad and I made amends toward the end of his life but the scars still cause pain.  

Honoring someone who abuses you seems to be the core of religion.

I'm really sorry to hear that And also really sorry if I triggered bad memories by bringing it up

Thank you for that but I am sort of past being triggered.  It's just a fact that the honor thy parents thing didn't work for me.  I didn't understand why I had to.  Just another piece missing from the belief system I was supposed to buy into.

[emjay]

I'm really sorry to hear that And also really sorry if I triggered bad memories by bringing it up

Thank you for that but I am sort of past being triggered.  It's just a fact that the honor thy parents thing didn't work for me.  I didn't understand why I had to.  Just another piece missing from the belief system I was supposed to buy into.

I can't relate to that exactly but I have been in let's say manipulative relationships, and there comes a point, if you get wise to it (and you're in a position to do something about it, which sadly you wouldn't have been as a kid but I was as an adult), that you realise that there's another choice and that is to step back and refuse to play their games. It reminds me of the scene in the film Labyrinth; Jareth, the Goblin King says 'just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave' and Sarah looks at him and says decisively 'you have no power over me'. That's how I approach the notion of God as well, that if it has to resort to cheap manipulation, of carrots and sticks, to be worshipped, it's not worth worshipping and I would, at least like to, treat it the same as I would any other manipulative relationship. Would I cave on the big day, maybe, who knows, but one thing it could never get through manipulation, or fear, would be true respect.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

It's always fun to watch the faithful talk about the great fairy's many superpowers - but..it doesn't actually make a lick of difference to the metaethical question what a god does or doesn't know.

They don’t do it to resolve - or even attempt to resolve - a metaethical problem. They do it to create a god that gives them the warm fuzzies.

Boru

[Angrboda]

Meh, God knows everything it is possible to know and can foresee all potential consequences for every concievable choice. To me, that satisfies the notion of all-knowing. If you want to insist that God must know what cannot be known, you can do so but it does not seem reasonable to me.

I'm a little confused about the concept of god knowing all the possibilities and god knowing all.  Which one is it?

I was taught that god knows what you are going to do and even if it's a screw up he lets you do it anyway so you have to repent and possibly pay an eternal price.

Makes me think that god is sitting back with a cup of coffee watching his creations screw up for some sort of entertainment and the eventual begging for mercy.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

-God knows everything. Except what he doesn’t.

-God cans do anything. Except what he can’t.

-God created everything. Except what he didn’t.

How the fuck did he get that ‘Omni’ prefix??

Boru

[arewethereyet]

-God knows everything. Except what he doesn’t.

-God cans do anything. Except what he can’t.

-God created everything. Except what he didn’t.

How the fuck did he get that ‘Omni’ prefix??

Boru

Omni-impotent.

[Deesse23]

That god would be neither allknowing, nor allmighty. Why call him god still, instead of "Don"?

Meh, God knows everything it is possible to know and can foresee all potential consequences for every concievable choice. To me, that satisfies the notion of all-knowing. If you want to insist that God must know what cannot be known, you can do so but it does not seem reasonable to me.

Oh, so he knew that humans would sin IF he choose to create them? Is that what you wanted to say?
Or do you like to stick with your original claim?

The only people being unreasonable are those who blame God for human choices. 

Who is to blame for gods choices?

To go further into your original (bad) analogy: Are parents to blame for their childrens choices?.....why make an exception for god?

[emjay]

Thank you for that but I am sort of past being triggered.  It's just a fact that the honor thy parents thing didn't work for me.  I didn't understand why I had to.  Just another piece missing from the belief system I was supposed to buy into.

I can't relate to that exactly but I have been in let's say manipulative relationships, and there comes a point, if you get wise to it (and you're in a position to do something about it, which sadly you wouldn't have been as a kid but I was as an adult), that you realise that there's another choice and that is to step back and refuse to play their games. It reminds me of the scene in the film Labyrinth; Jareth, the Goblin King says 'just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave' and Sarah looks at him and says decisively 'you have no power over me'. That's how I approach the notion of God as well, that if it has to resort to cheap manipulation, of carrots and sticks, to be worshipped, it's not worth worshipping and I would, at least like to, treat it the same as I would any other manipulative relationship. Would I cave on the big day, maybe, who knows, but one thing it could never get through manipulation, or fear, would be true respect.

@arewethereyet

I'm sorry if my example here missed the mark or was TMI. I was basically just trying to agree with you that love/respect should have to be earned not just granted by fiat, whether in regard to absolute laws of the Bible, such as honour thy parents, or in regard to the notion of God as a whole. And also, I didn't mean to come off as insensitive, if I did, to how powerless you must have felt... in my case even though I was an adult it was still not easy to get out of these situations, because I'm not the most assertive of people IRL, and am or at least was, easily manipulated/taken advantage of. So in my case though the dream/ideal was to look them in the eye and say those immortal words 'you have no power over me', the reality was much less courageous; I walked away and never spoke to them again (read, ghosted them). So no real closure there, but still felt empowering to do that.