Good exists - a Catholic comments

[Mister Agenda]

I accept your unbelief. 
Cheers Barry

Don't lie, Barry. You already told us you don't believe that we don't believe.

[Mister Agenda]

My belief is that there was never absolutely nothing.  The Big Bang Theory postulates an expansion of time-space from an infinitesimal point of high density, and that's definitely a something; from the POV of the current universe, it's more like an everything.

If you claim that a god started it all, at some point you will have to answer the question "Where did this alleged creator-god come from?"  You can't just assert "It's eternal; it was always there."  Nope, not good enough.  It's absurd to claim that a powerful, immortal sentient being was just sitting there, minding Its own business for quadrillions of years and then decided one day to cobble together a universe for shits and giggles.  Much more reasonable to see matter/energy as something that was always there in some form or another.


A word of caution, Barry:  Don't tell other people what they think or believe.  You have no way of reading other peoples' minds.  Don't bear false witness against people you've never even met.

Hi Astreja, 
I don’t tell anyone what they think or believe. 
If matter or energy existed for ever, from infinity, how could we arrive at the present. The answer for me is a God who exists outside of time.
Yes, where did God come from is a good question. So is where did the Universe come from. Or where did the Big Bang come from etc etc. Neither of us can prove the answer, but the burden of proof is not just on me. 
Cheers Barry

When you assert that you have the answer, you necessarily accept the burden of proof. I know it's inconvenient, but no one forced you to do it. And again, you stated that you don't believe we don't believe in your very first post. Until you retract that, I can only conclude that you're lying when you say something like 'I don't tell anyone what they think or believe.'

[Mister Agenda]

So much for jesus the great teacher of wisdom.  If he aint the son of god he aint shit, so sayeth a christian.

Hi GN, 
Jesus said he was God. So, as CS Lewis and others said, if he wasn’t God he was a lier or a madman. 
I believe he is God.
Cheers Barry

If he wasn't God he was a liar, or a madman, or a legend, or a myth, or misquoted or slandered or mistranslated...CS Lewis constructed a 'false trilemma' that artifically limited the number of possiblities.

[Mister Agenda]

How do you think it happened?

God decided and it happened. 
Cheers Barry

Being outside of time, when did God decide? Things like deciding and creating are actions, and actions take time, even if only a picosecond.

[Ravenshire]

Hi everyone 
I’ve been busy saving the world from unnecessary apostrophe’s.

If God doesn’t exist, and the world just happened as an accident, or always was an accident, why does anyone care about what I say. You all dismiss it as nonsense. 

But to say the burden of proof is on me is cowardly. 

You all admit you don’t know or it’s not true. Or are you keeping it a secret. OK, tell me I’m wrong. But to deny the existence of God and have no answer yourself is not a convincing position. 

I’m not sure why this forum exists. I can’t see any evidence of contributors trying to work out how the universe began. That would seem worthwhile. If you are not sure, why be on the forum at all, unless to find out. Abusing me for my modest comments does not seem very constructive. 

But ignore me and prove to each other how the universe began, whether it was made by God or it’s just and amazing random occurrence. 
God loves you
Barry

(my bold)

No. To shift the burden is cowardly. You keep insisting that we claim there is no gawd, despite having it explained to you that, for the majority of atheists, this is simply not true. You, however, not only claim there is one and that it created the universe and all that lies within it, but you claim to know with certainty. This puts the burden squarely on you, not those to whom you wish to shift it to.

You also claim that we keep expounding that "we don't know" how the universe came to be. That is not really the case. We know that it did not spring from nothing, as you so fervently claim we believe, but that it expanded from an infinitely hot, infinitely dense initial state. We do not yet understand, and we may never understand, the exact mechanism which started that expansion, but we do have theories that, if you would bother to google them, you could very easily find for yourself. We also understand quite well how the earth was formed, and it has been spelled out to you. Constantly claiming that we claim not to know is just trolling on your part.

Your time here has done little but expose your ignorance of what atheism is and your complete lack of, in fact, disdain for, scientific knowledge. I would recommend that if you wish to engage in thoughtful, intelligent conversations, you first correct your ignorance of the topics. At a minimum, listen to what others are actually saying instead of just waiting your turn to run your mouth speak. Your cute little "gotcha" comments aren't gonna work here, no matter how much you think they will. We've heard them all before.

Also, you claim to respect everyone here, yet treat them with a complete lack of respect by calling them by your cute little nicknames. My moniker here is not Raven, but Ravenshire, regardless of your laziness. Raven is a different member, though they have not been active in a very long time. And, while I've never had anything against them, I don't necessarily wish to be mistake for, or conflated with them. So, maybe you can demonstrate that respect you claim to have for us? Because it's arrogant presumption on your part to assume a diminutive or a nickname is acceptable and you've been called on it before. I can only conclude that continuing to do so is yet another effort at trolling, even if a weak effort, which is bad form.

[Ravenshire]

how do I use the quote function? The forum guidelines encourage me to do so, but I’m so dumb I can’t work it out. 
God loves you
Barry

If you want to quote something, first type the word "quote" in square brackets. Everything after that will be in a quote box. 

At the end of the quote put "/quote" in square brackets again. That will end the quote. 

Don't use the quotation marks the way I did -- I just did that to explain. 

Here is how it will look, though I will use regular parentheses instead of square brackets:

(quote)

Everyone please read this important quotation.

(/quote)

Or, simply click "Reply" and start typing below the boxed in area. It really isn't rocket surgery.

[Ravenshire]

The problem for humankind is that they don’t want to feel responsible to God, despite knowing in their hearts God exists. 
Cheers Barry

Despite understandable perceptions otherwise, 'theist' and 'self-righteous asshole' are not synonyms. You claiming that we know God is real 'in our hearts' is claiming we're liars and implies that you have no intent of discussing our differences in good faith.

I'm as justified in claiming that in your heart you know God isn't really real, and you're only here to try to prop up your shaky faith. You can say anything about someone's motivations if you're not willing to take their word for what they are.

Try showing the minimum respect you expect for yourself.

He proclaims his disrespect with every use of his little pet names for each of us. He has no respect for us, and is a liar for claiming to.

[Mister Agenda]

Prove it!

Hi Gwaithmir
Good point. I presume you can’t prove God doesn’t exist? So you have a problem there. The burden of proof isn’t just mine. 

But let’s presume it is. 

What would convince you that God exists? 

Cheers Barry

Dude, I can't even prove invisible unicorns don't exist. This isn't the flex you think it is. And you don't understand how burden of proof works. If I don't want to buy your product, it's not up to me to prove it doesn't work as advertised, it's up to you to prove that it does.

[Mister Agenda]

 What a great post, pity it was wasted on a Troll/Sock

Hi, wow that’s a lot to unload on me. 2+2 =4 or not. How can the existence of God not be binary? Saying you don’t know the answer is not an answer. That doesn’t make sense. I say the answer is yes, God exists. It doesn’t make me right. If you say “no”. One of us is right, the other wrong. The people who don’t know don’t have an answer. They are not right or wrong. I respect all 3 positions, buy it is binary.
Cheers Barry

So far we have God did it, quantum foam did it, no one did it because the universe has always existed in some form, every possible universe exists, nothingness is unstable and can't continue to 'exist'...there are options in addition to Goddidit. It's not binary because there are more than two options.

[Mister Agenda]

You don't know the basics of logic and reason.

Saying "I don't know" is the only and correct answer when,  in fact, your don't know.

Example: what number am i thinking about right now?

It doesn’t answer the question of “does God exist?”. It answers the question “Do you know if God exists?”
And if you don’t know, that’s fine. It means you don’t know the answer. 
Cheers Barry

Cheers Barry

And if you were honest, you could admit that you don't know the answer either.