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In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
(May 6, 2025 at 3:08 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Atheists - by definition - don’t have a relationship with God.

That doesn't mean they're outside the relational framework. As long as you understand the interaction I'm highlighting, you can label it whatever you want.
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
(May 6, 2025 at 2:57 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:
(May 6, 2025 at 1:59 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: To that end, what are - let’s say five - reasons that Christians believe in Jesus, and what caused them to accept those reasons?
You will rarely find someone who believes God is megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent, as Dawkins alleges, 
Dawkins never alleged anyone believed that, though he did in his book, start with a slightly humorous observation, based on the literal content of the bible, which depicts a deity that is of course precisely like that. 
Quote:you will rarely find someone who thinks the God of the bible is merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, as the Bible alleges, and is also a militant atheist. 
Lack of belief in a deity is irrelevant to the facts, of the deity the bible imagines and depicts, and it is demonstrably barbarically cruel, capriciously indifferent to suffering, genocidal, and as Dawkins pointed out, megalomaniacal. The first 4 commandments it is alleged to insist its pets use their free will on, are how it expects their adoration...or else. 
Quote:For every Christian that says they prayed and were heard, there is an atheist saying they prayed and weren't. 
Where do you pluck these fascinating claims from? News flash for Breezy, atheists don't pray to deities, dear oh dear John. 

There is no objective evidence that intercessory prayer works, and the faithful have had millennia to produce some. I am aware of at least one double blind clinical trial to test its efficacy, on post op heart patient recovery, it failed to demonstrate that prayer had any discernible effect. 
Quote:The Christian will say God exists because good has happened to them, 

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. 
Quote:the atheist will say God doesn't exist because evil happened to them. 
Ah, another handy factoid, plucked from wherever you keep these handy straw men claims. A rational person will observe the contradiction in the claim a deity exists that allows ubiquitous suffering, whilst claiming it also has limitless power and knowledge to prevent it. Epicurus debunked this notion of deity, centuries before primitive ignorant humans created the Christian religion offshoot from Judaism.  
Quote:In other words, the kind of relationship you have with God spills over into a judgment regarding his existence.

In other words you use sweeping unevidenced claims, to create straw man caricatures of what others think and believe, peppered with irrational arguments, and all the while never troubling us with a shred of objective evidence, that any deity exists or is even possible.

Another news flash for John then, I have the same objective relationship with deities that you do, I just don't pretend subjectively, that one of them is real.
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
(May 6, 2025 at 3:19 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:
(May 6, 2025 at 3:08 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Atheists - by definition - don’t have a relationship with God.

That doesn't mean they're outside the relational framework. As long as you understand the interaction I'm highlighting, you can label it whatever you want.
I disbelieve in deities for the same reason I disbelieve in mermaids and unicorns, et al. Grasp this, even if you fail to grasp anything else, or you're doomed to keep rehashing these ludicrous straw man claims.
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
(May 6, 2025 at 3:08 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(May 6, 2025 at 2:57 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: I think, in practice, most people believe or disbelieve for one key factor—relationship. This is something like a heuristic people follow on both ends. You will rarely find someone who believes God is megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent, as Dawkins alleges, and is also a believing Christian. And you will rarely find someone who thinks the God of the bible is merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, as the Bible alleges, and is also a militant atheist. 

I think there is a genuine correlation there: For every Christian that says they prayed and were heard, there is an atheist saying they prayed and weren't. The Christian will say God exists because good has happened to them, the atheist will say God doesn't exist because evil happened to them. In other words, the kind of relationship you have with God spills over into a judgment regarding his existence.

Atheists - by definition - don’t have a relationship with God.

But Christians don’t believe in God because their prayers are ‘answered’. They pray for answers because they believe in God.

Boru
Exactly, and when that tornado swing away from their town, and kills every man women and child in another town, they rejoice at the infinite mercy of the deity they imagined caused this "miracle". 

There but for the grace of god go I...or more accurately, there by god's grace goes somebody else.
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
Quote:That doesn't mean they're outside the relational framework. As long as you understand the interaction I'm highlighting, you can label it whatever you want.
Actually we are outside it and understanding has nothing to with anything
"Change was inevitable"


Nemo sicut deus debet esse!

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 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
My statement has predictive power, and I'll gladly put money on it. You ask any number of participants if they agree with the positive set of adjectives or negative set of adjectives describing the God of the Bible, and whether they self-identify as atheist or theist, and you will get a significant correlation.

And as a bonus, do the same with Sheldon's claims, like whether they have an "ability to deny objective reality, no matter how well evidenced, if it contradicts their beliefs."

My single variable vs all of his. $1,000 per person. Who wants to join?
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
(May 6, 2025 at 3:46 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: My statement has predictive power, and I'll gladly put money on it. You ask any number of participants if they agree with the positive set of adjectives or negative set of adjectives describing the God of the Bible, and whether they self-identify as atheist or theist, and you will get a significant correlation.

Your caricature straw man claims about atheists was demonstrably nonsense. However if you want us to create a poll to see how many atheists here disbelieve in any deity, because there is no objective evidence they exist, compared with your laughable bullshit about us having not had prayers answered, then go for it. Let me know how much money you owe us.

Or one could simply read the bible, and see unequivocally that the deity depicted is a capricious, petty vindictive, genocidally cruel mass murdering megalomaniac, largely indifferent to the suffering of its pets. 

Luckily there is not one shred of objective evidence any such deity exists, or is even possible. Which is the only reason I need to remain disbelieving. 
Quote:And as a bonus, do the same with Sheldon's claims, like whether they have an "ability to deny objective reality, no matter how well evidenced, if it contradicts their beliefs."
Anyone who believes the Genesis creation myth is literally true is doing this, for example by claiming that the earth existed before the sun, let alone with vegetation on it, or that the earth is a few thousand years old, is demonstrably and unequivocally denying objective reality. This has nothing to do with me, that's just projection on your part.
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
(May 6, 2025 at 3:56 pm)Sheldon Wrote: Or one could simply read the bible, and see unequivocally that the deity depicted is a capricious, petty vindictive, genocidally cruel mass murdering megalomaniac, largely indifferent to the suffering of its pets.

Bro didn't even allow us to run the study before giving us a demonstration lol. And he didn't even take up the bet. That's called sabotage.
Reply
RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
(May 6, 2025 at 3:46 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: My statement has predictive power, and I'll gladly put money on it. You ask any number of participants if they agree with the positive set of adjectives or negative set of adjectives describing the God of the Bible, and whether they self-identify as atheist or theist, and you will get a significant correlation.

And as a bonus, do the same with Sheldon's claims, like whether they have an "ability to deny objective reality, no matter how well evidenced, if it contradicts their beliefs."

My single variable vs all of his. $1,000 per person. Who wants to join?
Well we could start by asking you how old you believe the earth is, and whether you claim humans evolved, just like all other living things over billions of years, Since it is an objective fact that the earth is 4.543 billion years old, and that all living things evolved slowly over billions of years. Humans are one recent species of evolved great ape, these are objective facts, if you agree then fine, I will remove you from that group, but many Christians deny exactly these facts about objective reality. Over 45% of adults in the US deny the objective fact of species evolution, and natural selection. 

Let me know how you intend to pay me that $1000 dollars.
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
(May 6, 2025 at 4:03 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:
(May 6, 2025 at 3:56 pm)Sheldon Wrote: Or one could simply read the bible, and see unequivocally that the deity depicted is a capricious, petty vindictive, genocidally cruel mass murdering megalomaniac, largely indifferent to the suffering of its pets.

Bro didn't even allow us to run the study before giving us a demonstration lol. And he didn't even take up the bet. That's called sabotage.
I can only suggest you actually read the bible, and I have taken your bet....bro...

Lets start with capricious, the biblical deity is depicted as torturing a newborn baby to death, out of sheer caprice, as it was conceived in an adulterous relationship.

Petty and vindictive, it is depicted as cursing all people, and for all time, because two of them, it allegedly gave free will, used it in a way it didn't like. 

Genocidally cruel, it allegedly killed every living thing on the planet, as again humans used the free will it allegedly gave them, in ways it didn't like. 

Mass murdering is covered, but one could see the many times the bible depicts it encouraging it's pets to commit wars of ethnic cleansing, infanticide, sex trafficking prisoners, killing off every man woman and child, even their livestock etc etc. 

Indifferent to suffering, well these examples abound, but Exodus 21, where it very specifically endorses slavery will more than do. 

Time for you to hand over the cash...bro
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