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RE: Abstaining from Vaccination should NOT be a right
February 25, 2012 at 6:29 pm
(February 25, 2012 at 6:22 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
(February 25, 2012 at 6:14 pm)Melanbee Wrote: Sit still how?I am perfectly aware of how diseases/viruses and bacteria's are transmitted. If you're saying people should be vaccinated to prevent transmission of the disease, then by default if you're vaccinated you prevented transmission. Correct? So why does it matter to you if someone who is not vaccinated exposes themselves to a disease? I am just curious as to what your rationale is.
Sitting still biologically speaking. Lets say you vaccinate for a specific strain of a specific pathogen (which is what we do). Group A gets vaccinated, group B does not. Group b is now a testing ground for that pathogen, allowing it the time and resources required to potentially overcome whatever defense we've established against it (and it has to, adapt or die). We're back to square one. Or, we can leverage an ounce of common sense and take the twenty seconds and pin-prick we get by going the route of complete vaccination. Smallpox being a great example. It is the only infectious disease that we have ever been able to lay claim to eradication from, and this was not achieved by willy nilly, "come in if you like" vaccination programs. Still, we're terrified of modified strains of smallpox being weaponized. We're terrified of this because it is terrifying and easily within the realm of probability, (perhaps even eventuality). When we talk vaccination we're talking about an attempt to eradicate something that has been preying upon us, successfully, for hundreds of thousands of years at the very least. So my vaccinations will protect me, fantastic, but how far down the line are we going to have to reinvent the smallpox vaccine because some complete nutjob felt they had an inalienable right to say no to public health policy?
I like where you went with this. Now this argument I can understand and even get on board with. We have seen this happen with MRSA and VRSA...a virus will always figure out a way to grow stronger and mutate to such a degree that the current treatment of choice is no longer effective.
Your smallpox example...absolutely true. So, which of our current diseases are causing an outbreak in the same fashion that smallpox did? I haven't seen anything within the past few weeks from the CDC but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
RE: Abstaining from Vaccination should NOT be a right
February 25, 2012 at 6:29 pm (This post was last modified: February 25, 2012 at 6:31 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Just be smart doesn't cut it Shell. Smart people (those who wash their hands, cook their food properly, follow the rules) get sick too. Viruses do evolve outside of us, but evolving within our population gives them a leg up on infecting us over other species. Mel hasn't caught rubella because she is vaccinated, and most of the people she works with are vaccinated, and we haven't seen it reinvent itself as a hardier, more resistant strain. That doesn't mean it can't or won't. We have every reason to believe that it can and will. That's exactly why we worry about developed resistance to countermeasures (and how much and how often those countermeasures are used...and why punctuated, abrupt eradication while we have it pinned down is always preferred).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: Abstaining from Vaccination should NOT be a right
February 25, 2012 at 6:32 pm
Quote:Hello 5thHorseman....what's up with all the eeeeeeeeeeeeee's?
The flu is a problem for everyone. It kills a lot of people. Our immunocompromised is a high risk for dying if they contract the flu. Sadly, it does not care which part of the world you live in.
The eeeeee's are because I can. No other reason
After what you have just stated, why have you not immunised yourself or children? Forgive me if you have already answered this.
RE: Abstaining from Vaccination should NOT be a right
February 25, 2012 at 6:37 pm
(February 25, 2012 at 6:32 pm)5thHorseman Wrote:
Quote:Hello 5thHorseman....what's up with all the eeeeeeeeeeeeee's?
The flu is a problem for everyone. It kills a lot of people. Our immunocompromised is a high risk for dying if they contract the flu. Sadly, it does not care which part of the world you live in.
The eeeeee's are because I can. No other reason
After what you have just stated, why have you not immunised yourself or children? Forgive me if you have already answered this.
I immunize my children for everything except Influenza. That vaccination is just plain silly.
I have previously immunized myself and for medical reasons my doctor and I have decided (against my employers wishes) that I would not be receiving any vaccinations for the time being. That does not mean I won't continue to immunize once I feel it is safe to do so. A lot of people do not recognize that some vaccinations are live viruses and you are actually injecting yourself with a virus that your body has to fight off. Our bodies develop antibodies to it off...and if we are successful in the fight we are now immune. Hence, why if you have had the chicken pox you do not need to be vaccinated.
RE: Abstaining from Vaccination should NOT be a right
February 25, 2012 at 6:38 pm
(February 25, 2012 at 6:29 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Just be smart doesn't cut it Shell.
Be smart has to cut it. You can't be consistent and be pro-choice, pro forced vaccinations. Your body is your responsibility. Yes, if you don't like it, hide in your house. Plenty of people do that.
Quote:Smart people (those who wash their hands, cook their food properly, follow the rules) get sick too.
They sure do. That's fucking life. Yes, we should do what we can when we can. Should we make other people do that too? Hell, no.
Quote:Viruses do evolve outside of us, but evolving within our population gives them a leg up on infecting us over other species.
Vaccinations give them a leg up on mutating. Guaranteed way to make something more infectious and dangerous, make it harder to contract it.
Quote:Mel hasn't caught rubella because she is vaccinated, and most of the people she works with are vaccinated, and we haven't seen it reinvent itself as a hardier, more resistant strain. That doesn't mean it can't or won't.
Yeah, and when it does, we'll have to come up with another vaccine. This is life. So, the fact that viruses evolve gives you the right to force a needle into someone else? No, it doesn't.
Quote:We have every reason to believe that it can and will. That's exactly why we worry about developed resistance to countermeasures (and how much and how often those countermeasures are used...and why punctuated, abrupt eradication while we have it pinned down is always preferred).
I won't argue about any of that. I will argue with people forcing other people to take vaccines. The bottom line is that vaccines can be dangerous too. If you do not allow people to make informed decisions, you are dealing with those very few individuals who are infected rather than vaccinated when you stick them with that needle. Fuck that.
RE: Abstaining from Vaccination should NOT be a right
February 25, 2012 at 6:39 pm (This post was last modified: February 25, 2012 at 6:43 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(February 25, 2012 at 6:29 pm)Melanbee Wrote: I like where you went with this. Now this argument I can understand and even get on board with. We have seen this happen with MRSA and VRSA...a virus will always figure out a way to grow stronger and mutate to such a degree that the current treatment of choice is no longer effective.
Your smallpox example...absolutely true. So, which of our current diseases are causing an outbreak in the same fashion that smallpox did? I haven't seen anything within the past few weeks from the CDC but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
Well, on the CDC's MMWR today there is a summary of 2008 right behind the front page nod to the increased risk and incidence of influenza for pregnant women.
Infectious Diseases Designated as Notifiable
at the National Level during 2008*
Malaria
Measles
Meningococcal disease
Mumps
†
Novel influenza A virus infections
Pertussis
Plague
Poliomyelitis, paralytic
Poliovirus infection, nonparalytic
Psittacosis
Q fever
†
acute
chronic
Rabies
animal
human
Rocky Mountain spotted fever
†
Rubella
Rubella, congenital syndrome
Salmonellosis
Severe acute respiratory syndrome-associated coronavirus
(SARS-CoV) disease
Shiga toxin-producing Escherichia coli (STEC)
Shigellosis
Smallpox
Streptococcal disease, invasive, Group A
Streptococcal toxic-shock syndrome
Streptococcus pneumoniae, drug resistant, all ages, invasive disease
Streptococcus pneumoniae, invasive disease non-drug resistant,
in children aged <5 years
Syphilis
Syphilis, congenital
Tetanus
Toxic-shock syndrome (other than streptococcal)
Trichinellosis
Tuberculosis
Tularemia
Typhoid fever
Vancomycin-intermediate Staphylococcus aureus infection (VISA)
Vancomycin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus infection (VRSA)
Varicella (morbidity)
Varicella (mortality)
Vibriosis
Yellow fever
Acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS)
Anthrax
Domestic arboviral diseases, neuroinvasive and nonneuroinvasive
California serogroup virus
Eastern equine encephalitis virus
Powassan virus
St. Louis encephalitis virus
West Nile virus
Western equine encephalitis virus
Botulism
foodborne
infant
other (wound and unspecified)
Brucellosis
Chancroid
Chlamydia trachomatis infections
Cholera
Coccidioidomycosis
†
Cryptosporidiosis
Cyclosporiasis
Diphtheria
Ehrlichiosis/Anaplasmosis
†
Ehrlichia chaffeensis
Ehrlichia ewingii
Anaplasma phagocytophilum
Undetermined
Giardiasis
Gonorrhea
Haemophilus influenzae, invasive disease
Hansen disease (Leprosy)
Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome
Hemolytic uremic syndrome, post-diarrheal
Hepatitis, viral, acute
Hepatitis A, acute
Hepatitis B, acute
Hepatitis B virus, perinatal infection
Hepatitis C, acute
Hepatitis, viral, chronic
Chronic Hepatitis B
Hepatitis C virus infection (past or present)
Human Immunodeficiency Virus infection
Adult (age ≥13 yrs)
Pediatric (age <13 yrs)
Influenza-associated pediatric mortality
Legionellosis
Listeriosis
The field is wide open for the source of our next big epidemic.
( Plague, really? Fuck me. :hangs head: Notice, btw, that smallpox is on there, even after all of our efforts. Wonder how that happens? )
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: Abstaining from Vaccination should NOT be a right
February 25, 2012 at 6:41 pm (This post was last modified: February 25, 2012 at 6:43 pm by Melanbee.)
Both the CDC and the WHO agree that the first line of defense is hand hygiene. Vaccinations are helpful but not as effective as hygiene.
(February 25, 2012 at 6:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
(February 25, 2012 at 6:29 pm)Melanbee Wrote: I like where you went with this. Now this argument I can understand and even get on board with. We have seen this happen with MRSA and VRSA...a virus will always figure out a way to grow stronger and mutate to such a degree that the current treatment of choice is no longer effective.
Your smallpox example...absolutely true. So, which of our current diseases are causing an outbreak in the same fashion that smallpox did? I haven't seen anything within the past few weeks from the CDC but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
Well, on the CDC's MMWR today there is a summary of 2008 right behind the front page nod to the increased risk and incidence of influenza for pregnant women.
RE: Abstaining from Vaccination should NOT be a right
February 25, 2012 at 6:43 pm
(February 25, 2012 at 6:41 pm)Melanbee Wrote: Both the CDC and the WHO agree that the first line of defense is hand hygiene. Vaccinations are helpful but not as effective as hygiene.
RE: Abstaining from Vaccination should NOT be a right
February 25, 2012 at 6:48 pm (This post was last modified: February 25, 2012 at 6:50 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Excuse me for arguing that we shouldn't just roll over because mother nature is trying to off us. Or for mentioning that mother nature absolutely will punish you for my bad choices, and vice versa.
Quote:Be smart has to cut it. You can't be consistent and be pro-choice, pro forced vaccinations. Your body is your responsibility. Yes, if you don't like it, hide in your house. Plenty of people do that.
Or we could vaccinate.
Quote:They sure do. That's fucking life. Yes, we should do what we can when we can. Should we make other people do that too? Hell, no.
What we can when we can? Like vaccinating?
Quote:Vaccinations give them a leg up on mutating. Guaranteed way to make something more infectious and dangerous, make it harder to contract it.
Absolutely, unless you kill it entirely by way of massive campaigns of vaccination.
Quote:Yeah, and when it does, we'll have to come up with another vaccine. This is life. So, the fact that viruses evolve gives you the right to force a needle into someone else? No, it doesn't.
Or we could just kill it by way of massive campaigns of vaccination. And no Shell, that a virus may evolve does not give us any such right. That we could prick a prick with a needle one time and potentially forestall or avoid massive loss of life does.
Quote:I won't argue about any of that. I will argue with people forcing other people to take vaccines. The bottom line is that vaccines can be dangerous too. If you do not allow people to make informed decisions, you are dealing with those very few individuals who are infected rather than vaccinated when you stick them with that needle. Fuck that.
Mel beat me to it.
Yet we mandate what people can and can't do (even with regards to their own bodies) especially when it concerns others all the time. This is different how?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
![[Image: Melanbee.png]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i1123.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl546%2Fshellyb7%2FMelanbee.png)
Vaccinations are helpful but not as effective as hygiene. 
