What is good about theism and theists?

[Werewolff]

I think it would be productive to talk about what is good about theism and theists. So let's do that.

[Nine]

Some of them are really hot!

Ummm. I'm not sure what else.

[Minimalist]

This is a trick question, right?


(Some are decent people with a minor personality flaw.)


(The fundies are totally fucked up.)

[NoMoreFaith]

I simply can't imagine what is good about theism and theists, because the label is not a person.

Individually, many of them support their theistic views because they already have an altruistic tendency, and supporting a belief structure which supports "moral values" isn't necessarily a bad thing.

However, I can't really say that theism itself is a good thing. It can be the whip to force people to act in ways that benefit society, and in the long run, that is helpful to all.
Churches do a lot of charity work which is highly commendable, however, I also find it unnerving that anyone requires a theistic whip to promote altruistic action.

I struggle with the idea that a lie is good, if it promotes social togetherness and altruism.. its still based on a lie. Its a cold viewpoint to promote a lie purely because of the benefits of that lie.
Its a common fictional dilemma in stories, do you expose a truth which causes harm, or allow a lie to persist. Common story point.
I think I would expose the truth every time, and hope that in the long run, the harm is lessened and balanced by the removal of living your life on a lie.

I do believe, optimistically perhaps, that removing religion solves a lot of ill (far from all of it of course) in the world, and people would find less harmful outlets for social togetherness and shows of altruism to ensure the survival and betterment of society (I confess a lack of surety if this would occur).

There is nothing good about living a lie. It also strikes me as a little creepy to turn a blind eye to the restrictions and harm the lie does in order to promote the "moral good" it does stand for.

As a general rule, the religious aren't bad. The vast majority have strong convictions which to promote a stable(ish) society, which we are lucky enough to live in. The point being, is that it is the individuals who do the legwork, not the institutions of faith.
I simply disagree religion is still required to control anarchic tendencies.

[Werewolff]

I see religion similar to how I see culture. I think religions are cultures. If a culture is good, I think that it's a positive thing to maintain it. To me, religious people are just regular people who want to be good, and their religion is their way of keeping that together in the same way that any culture tries to preserve itself. I don't see anything wrong with discarding elements of a culture and emphasising others, which is what happens in religions and that's only natural as all cultures evolve. That's why you have christians who read the bible a lot and take most of it quite seriously, while others take the basics and run with that. As for lies or untruths, first of all, we should never rule out the possibility that there is a god. But more importantly, I think there's a lot to be said about the old saying : It's better to be happy than to be right. If being in a religion helps a person to achieve that, and to do good, then I'm all for it. I don't have to believe in the premises of a religion to see its good points. I don't think that religious people would revert to being bad if their beliefs about god were ever in doubt in their minds, I just think they would probably latch onto some other spiritual concepts like a lot of non religious theists, and if that also came into doubt for them, they'd be atheists with good hearts. For me, there's nothing inherently wrong with believing in god, and anything bad that has ever been done "in the name" of religion has been done by people who in my view would have used some other justification anyway.

[NoMoreFaith]

Famously, for good people to do evil, you need religion.
I think this is still true, and you can make a pretty extensive list of evil committed purely in Gods name with little ulterior motive.

You are primarily concerned with moderate religious, rather than the fanatic.

The problem I see, is that the reasonable moderates hold the door open for the evil to walk in with a happy twinkle in their eye.
Moderates love to believe the crazy ones have nothing to do with them, but imo, they are still responsible for letting the enemy of reason in at the gates to poison the well.

[Neo-Scholastic]

NMFaith, you will be pleased to know that at least some Christians, particularly heretics like myself, are happy to call the more strident believers to account. You might not see it, but it does happen.

[NoMoreFaith]

NMFaith, you will be pleased to know that at least some Christians, particularly heretics like myself, are happy to call the more strident believers to account. You might not see it, but it does happen.

I didn't mean to tar all moderates with one brush, apologies.

It just doesn't happen enough, and its usually the "evil" atheists who have to point out when the religious are doing something is quite simply immoral.

The attitude of "but that's not MY Christianity" just doesn't cut it. Call them out, and to account for it, not sit in silence.

[Werewolff]

Famously, for good people to do evil, you need religion.
I think this is still true, and you can make a pretty extensive list of evil committed purely in Gods name with little ulterior motive.

You are primarily concerned with moderate religious, rather than the fanatic.

The problem I see, is that the reasonable moderates hold the door open for the evil to walk in with a happy twinkle in their eye.
Moderates love to believe the crazy ones have nothing to do with them, but imo, they are still responsible for letting the enemy of reason in at the gates to poison the well.

So what's the logical conclusion? You can't eradicate belief in god, nor should you if you could. The problem doesn't lie with the "good" believers, it lies with the "bad" ones. Good people with stable minds should just carry on with their beliefs, as they are of no harm to anyone, and bad people, whether they claim to be religious or not, should be dealt with as they come, and their actions should be judged by their merits (I mean lack of). And of course there are lots of areas inbetween, but I'm sure mature and reasonable people can separate religion from bad people and bad actions. And yes I know that the bible and the koran have things in them which could easily be interpreted for malevolent means, but let's face it, those things don't sit well with the good ones and so they are generally ignored and disregarded. The way I look at it is that every individual has their own religion, based on a combination of their interpretation of what the religion says and their own personality. For good people to do evil, it takes all sorts of things, it could be a bad upbringing, bad habits, a warped view of the world, psychological instability, personal issues, the list goes on. Most people in the world are theists. If religion itself was such a major problem, we'd all be watching our backs all the time. But it's not like that.

[NoMoreFaith]

So what's the logical conclusion? You can't eradicate belief in god, nor should you if you could.

Why. I note you haven't put forward any arguments why a good lie (at least in terms of probability) is better than truth.

I agree with your thinking that religion acts as a cultural bond to promote the status quo, growth and survival of a society. I would however argue that since the "age of reason", it has become increasingly superfluous with the growth of philosophy, free thought, science and most importantly, mass education.

The problem doesn't lie with the "good" believers, it lies with the "bad" ones. Good people with stable minds should just carry on with their beliefs, as they are of no harm to anyone, and bad people, whether they claim to be religious or not, should be dealt with as they come, and their actions should be judged by their merits (I mean lack of). And of course there are lots of areas inbetween, but I'm sure mature and reasonable people can separate religion from bad people and bad actions.

I can't shake the feeling that the extremist fundamentalists who rise to power and attempt to enforce their superstitious idiocy into policies of the land are doing so while, the vast majority of their shared faith, whom are moderate in their faith tremble and hesitate to speak out against the follies of the fundamentalists in the keep.
You can't build a better world trying to compromise with idiocy.

Now, this doesn't stand for the most, but the only reason that this minority have a soapbox to stand on, is because they stand on the cowering quivering body of moderate religion whom allowed them to climb there, afraid to move in case it brings them all tumbling down.

I'm waxing a little poetic now, so I confess I'm exaggerating my view a little.

For good people to do evil, it takes all sorts of things, it could be a bad upbringing, bad habits, a warped view of the world, psychological instability, personal issues, the list goes on.

Anything BUT the dark age myths and misguided morality which forms the bedrock of the faith.

I don't buy it. Of course there are more factors involved, it would be absurd to argue otherwise. In many cases the religion is an excuse for abhorrent behaviour is certainly true (which you do state as a factor, tis true). How often is it said that its odd that God's opinion oddly mirrors the prejudices of the person.

Look, I'm not saying theists are bad people, nothing like it. Do I hold their faith accountable. Certainly. This says little about those who in most cases are simply born into it. We are all just making our way in the world, and my words have been perhaps, a little harsh on them.

The fact remains, most moderates have no reason why they believe, nor do they care. However, it remains that you need to be blind to skim over the injustices caused in THEIR name.

I'm drunk so as a quick disclaimer, I may be more militant than usual.