Am I a "liberal"?

[dry land fish]

Depends how "violent" they are - for instance, if they carry knives, then they're already breaking the law (at least here).

EDIT: Holy shit! In DLF's above post, I noticed the 'crime' part, but I didn't see the 'terrorist' part! Wow. Now whether it's a crime or not, as I said - depends on how violent they are...but fucking hell - to liken them with terrorists is another fucking matter! There is a matter of degree! There's a difference between 'thug' and 'terrorist'.

EvF

How are they not a terrorist? They terrorize their neighborhood. Actually my wish came true! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/art...Jan31.html They threaten the fabric of our free society. In inner city neighborhoods young kids are not free to make choices for themselves. They are basically forced into being in a neighborhood gang and are then trained to be the most defective member of society possible. A lot of kids in neighborhoods don't have a chance. If they are part of our future shouldn't we try to keep them safe and ensure their success in life? Like I or the rest of America care about the liberties of gang members. They will never be anything to society but a thorn in our side if they continue to do their "gang banging". Making them a terrorist organization could possibly keep people from joining and can help police to control how much power they have over their neighborhoods. Everyone knows what a "gang" is and the characteristics of one. It's not hard to define. Peaceful people don't associate with a gang!!! I mean what planet are some of you from? Do you go around talking to gang members and "hanging out"? Give me a break on that one. It's great to allow people the freedom to do whatever they want with their life as long as they don't terrorize or kill people in the process. Like anyone is stupid enough to even assume that a certain block belongs to them because of their ethnicity and then fight about it. These people have no education and are lazy and all they have to do is go around peddling drugs and fighting over their own stupidity.

[Meatball]

..so your solution to that, as a Libertarian, is to have the government intervene and use coercion say that certain people cannot freely assemble with other certain people?

[Tiberius]

We are multicultural. We are not all white. Your statistics do not prove your point.

I'm afraid they do. Of the non-white people (9%), this includes many who are culturally British (i.e. have had families in the country for hundreds of years). It includes mixed race people who are culturally British as well. Multiculturalism is not just about skin colour, it is about culture (clue is in the title really). Most of my black friends I would call culturally British. My statistics show that we are not only a predominantly white society, but that we are a predominantly "British" society. We are on our way towards multiculturalism by allowing immigrants to live in our country, but we are not there yet.

You agree that the 1 in 33 is not 1 in 10.
The police have been taken to tribunals by women who suffered the chauvinist culture. Non-whites too have appeared.
The infamous tv documentary shown a couple of years ago showed racism at its worst exhibited by new recruits at a police training course....and the trainer was less than enthusiastic to stamp on it.

Could you link me to the reports / documentary? I'd love to read/watch them.

Do you ever escape the bubble you live in?

Coming from a socialist, I find this hilarious. You people never leave your little imaginary world. You evidently never leave your bubble if you think that 9% non-white constitutes a "multicultural" society.

Your opinion of me? I could care less. The more you post on this, the more I suspect you may be in denial, like so many others are, of your racism.

I was just thinking the same thing. Your words are full of anti-equality propaganda; you think that differences in race should be something that needs highlighting rather than something that shouldn't even cross someone's mind. You'd prefer to have a shoddy police force full of unqualified people just because they check the demographic boxes, rather than have people who can actually do the job. Take a tip from me; before you make such ridiculous statements in future, try putting yourself in the position of those you are discriminating against. How would you feel if you were turned down for a job in favour of a less qualified ethnic minority worker. If you had any sensibilities, you'd be rightly pissed off.

The ex-football manager Ron Atkinson, who was caught using racist language about black footballers was given a chance to atone by being allowed to feature in a programme to show he wasn't racist. THE PROGRAMME SHOWED HE WAS, but he didn't see that he was. Many many people are like Ron Atkinson on this issue.

I fail to see what mentioning this has to do with anything. I'm not in denial, I don't hate black people, I'm not racist, I'm pro-equality. When I see a black man, a white man, and a Chinese man, I see three men.

[dry land fish]

..so your solution to that, as a Libertarian, is to have the government intervene and use coercion say that certain people cannot freely assemble with other certain people?

No.

[bozo]

..so your solution to that, as a Libertarian, is to have the government intervene and use coercion say that certain people cannot freely assemble with other certain people?

No.

DLF,
Are you going to answer my question that I've asked you twice before, how do you view white racists?

---

Adrian,
Multiculturalism is defined in Chambers as-
" the policy of accomodating any number of distinct cultures within the one society WITHOUT PREJUDICE OR DISCRIMINATION "

That is our country.....but I'll agree one thing with you, we haven't quite got there on the last bit in capitals.

Re. links to cases and the tv programme, no I can't. Search yourself if you really want to, but it won't help you.

A few recent examples of the view from your bubble:-

According to you we are all born equal. Bill Gates child is the same as a child born to the poorest woman on the planet. Remember that one? You assert this by separating out economic matters from some pure ideal of equality. Totally nonsense.

You argued the same way over your libertarian politics, attemting to separate social from economic matters. Again, totally divorced from reality.


The point of mentioning Ron Atkinson was to show how some people are racist but don't realise they are. Others are racist but claim they aren't....tell-tale sign is when these types say " I'm not racist BUT...." followed by a racist tirade.

I can only judge you by what you've said here on the racism arguments. Initially, you saw no racism in a post about the poor performance of black politicians. You exhibit extreme dislike for anti-racists.
You have used disparaging language towards non-whites in this very thread. You dispute we are multicultural. The evidence is what it is.


Finally, like your libertarian comrade Dlf, you are egocentric. You both look out for number 1, that is what you look for in your politics.
Consider this, if you were not Tiberius and white, but Winston Small and black, and you kept getting discriminated against in the workplace, wouldn't you be " pissed off "?

[Tiberius]

Adrian,
Multiculturalism is defined in Chambers as-
" the policy of accomodating any number of distinct cultures within the one society WITHOUT PREJUDICE OR DISCRIMINATION "

That's one definition of multiculturalism, but here is another:

the preservation of different cultures or cultural identities within a unified society, as a state or nation.

Very different meaning it seems. However both support my point. You have alluded several times that racism is still around, and even in some of the top jobs that there is racism, so we have not got there without prejudice or discrimination. My statistics show that 91% of us are white, and out of the remaining 9%, that includes people who are culturally British. We do not preserve cultures, we merge them into one. There is an Indian guy who runs the corner shop a few minutes from my house; he is a first generation immigrant (speaks perfect English as well) but insists people call him "David" rather than his real name. His cultural identity has not been preserved at all.

That is our country.....but I'll agree one thing with you, we haven't quite got there on the last bit in capitals.

Indeed, so we are not a multicultural society...yet. So glad you finally agree with me. I'll agree that we're "semi-multicultural", but we are not all the way there by a long shot.

Re. links to cases and the tv programme, no I can't. Search yourself if you really want to, but it won't help you.

Burden of proof is still on you. We don't let theists get away with dodging the evidence, so I'm not going to let you get away with it either. Why won't it "help me"? If this were a problem, the evidence would be out there.

According to you we are all born equal. Bill Gates child is the same as a child born to the poorest woman on the planet. Remember that one? You assert this by separating out economic matters from some pure ideal of equality. Totally nonsense.

As I repeatedly told you at the time, you are creating a strawman of my argument. My argument did not rely on any economic issues, but idealogical ones. As I explained when I originally wrote this, I see everyone as ideologically equal; we all deserve life, liberty, and prosperity. Everyone has these rights. Everyone is born ideologically equal, despite what society they are born into.

You argued the same way over your libertarian politics, attemting to separate social from economic matters. Again, totally divorced from reality.

Social matters have absolutely nothing to do with economic ones. You can easily distinguish which idea goes into which box, and this is what all political evaluations are based on; how you fair in economic matters vs how you fair in social matters. Freedom of speech is not an economic matter, it is a social matter. Minimum wage is not a social matter, it is an economic matter. How is this "divorced from reality"?

The point of mentioning Ron Atkinson was to show how some people are racist but don't realise they are. Others are racist but claim they aren't....tell-tale sign is when these types say " I'm not racist BUT...." followed by a racist tirade.

Point out a place where I did that. I just did the search. At no point did I ever utter the words "I'm not racist BUT", nor did I make any racist tirade. I am not a racist!!! I'm a pro-equality anti-racist, rather than the traditional "pro-minority anti-racist". I would prefer to see all people considered equal than the minorities treated as better than the majorities. The latter I find to be a very anti-white for of racism, and I abhor racism in any form.

I can only judge you by what you've said here on the racism arguments. Initially, you saw no racism in a post about the poor performance of black politicians. You exhibit extreme dislike for anti-racists.
You have used disparaging language towards non-whites in this very thread. You dispute we are multicultural. The evidence is what it is.

The thread was about the poor performance of black politicians in a predominantly black society. That was something you failed to see. I a black society, most of the politicians will be black, and given that a lot of politicians are bad, it is no wonder there would be black politicians. The same applies in any political system, but you simply jumped out with the racism card because you took it the wrong way. josef explained his post later on, and everything he said was in agreement with my original explanation: http://atheistforums.org/thread-626-post...ml#pid9739

I dislike anti-racists who support the elevation of minorities to some higher status that the rest of the population. I only see this as a complete reversal of the targets of racism. I'll say it again, I would much prefer a society where everyone is viewed as equal, regardless of skin colour, than a society where minorities are treated as special and deserving of special treatment (such as a fast track to employment).

I dispute we are multicultural because we do not have a large population of minority groups at all. We have a 91% white population, and as you say, racism is still around. We do not fulfil any of the requirements of the definition of "multiculturalism".

Finally, like your libertarian comrade Dlf, you are egocentric. You both look out for number 1, that is what you look for in your politics.

This is plainly absurd. I am massively in debt with student loans, I don't have a job, etc. If I were looking out for number 1, I'd support welfare and as much money as I could get my hands on. I don't support either. I am fully aware that in a Libertarian society, I would need to get off my ass and get a job as soon as I graduated from university. I am prepared for that because it is the only fair way of doing things.

Consider this, if you were not Tiberius and white, but Winston Small and black, and you kept getting discriminated against in the workplace, wouldn't you be " pissed off "?

Indeed I would, but my solution would not be to demand I get a better job because I'm a minority; I would seek to educate people about my culture so that they would not discriminate. I would work my way up the job ladder as everyone else is supposed to.

You did not answer my question by the way, and since I just answered yours, I'd very much like an answer: "How would you feel if you were turned down for a job in favour of a less qualified ethnic minority worker?"

[dry land fish]

I'm sorry bozo I didn't know you had asked me about my view of white racists. They are white trash and ignorant. They do nothing to contribute to the well being of society. Some of the groups are violent and terroristic too. The problem is that they are defined under "hate groups" by the FBI but at the same time they are a "free speech" group. They hide behind the assurance of freedom of speech in this country and so because of that our government has a hard time controlling them. Freedom of speech is great...but they abuse that right. I'd support the right of someone to hold up signs with all of the racial crap they want on it. To even hold peaceful assembly as that's legal by law. Unfortunately they don't just do that and they are militaristic. What is interesting is that our government watches and keeps tabs on these white racial groups and even the NAACP watches them. If our government started to watch and try to control the urban gangs like we do with the white racial groups then it would be considered racist.

Urban gangs can't hide behind free speech. Their whole idea is to control a certain area of their city and anyone who isn't part of their "gang" who happens to live or enter their controlled area are sometimes killed or raped or maimed. By controlling an area they sometimes illegally force people to pay them for the right to live there, run drugs there, pimp prostitutes there...etc. They then recruit young kids to quit school and join their gang. If those kids refuse they are beaten and their parents home is vandalized and sometimes they will kill the child or their family.

Both the racial white groups and gangs use brain washing to control their members.

[bozo]

Adrian,
Where does your definition of multiculturalism come from?

No, we ARE multicultural....except that dinosaur racists are still around.

I'm not an anorak or as dedicated to debate as you, so go search...or not, I don't really care.

Fuck your strawman, I'm bored with its appearance every other post. The fact remains that your premise is totally flawed, in any meaningful sense. Go tell the poorest, starving, about-to-die child in Africa that they have the equality you say they have. TOTAL BOLLOCKS.

You maintain you are not racist. So be it. I have my doubts.

I'm not going to repeat my assertions about what you have said. They stand.
From what I see of you and Dlf's posts, you are both " me first "...second...and last. That's how come you are both capitalists.

Your Winston Small answer is...no answer.

I'll answer your question; I'd think the ethnics are finally making some progress.

[dry land fish]

So what if I am a capitalis? Does that make me evil? People can be anti capitalism if they want but the reality is in a capitalist country anyone has the opportunity to become rich. All it takes is hard work and dedication. There are so many companies in America from small businesses to huge corporations that would not be successful if it weren't for capitalism. I can start up a business right now if I wanted and depending on how I market myself and the products I offer I could become as big as anyone. Capitalism works. Socialism has failed so many times in history. Capitalism is financial security.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

So what if I am a capitalist? Does that make me evil

Of course it doesn't. I don't think you're evil, bad or immoral. From your posts it seems to me you are probably a very good,decent and moral person,who lives according to conscience..


Perhaps my problem with you is what I see as a contradiction: A good person with some really silly and nasty ideas. To me your world view seems naive, self absorbed,insensitive and closed minded. Those things make you look like a fool. I don't suffer fools.

So I hope you can see,the problem is actually as much my intolerance as your views which seem sincere. As far as I'm concerned,you have every right express your views without being personally attacked. In my opinion, the rights of dissent and even to cause offence are at the heart of free speech.

Of course I reserve the right to attack any view you express with which I disagree, just as I do with any other member.