Both groups feel the other side is dishonest?

[Mystic]

I haven't conducted a wide poll or anything, but I have asked a few Muslims in a chat room, if they think whether Atheists are honest to themselves or dishonest (about their beliefs).

They said they are being dishonest.

My first question, is do you feel Muslims are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs?

My 2nd question, why do you think some of them think Atheists are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs? Do you feel it maybe be self-projection?

[Brian37]

When you make it a label issue, yes side vs side always thinks the other is being dishonest.

But, when you look at evolution, evolution is not dependent on getting facts right, but only dependent on getting to the point of reproduction in order to create that "safety in numbers".

The theist is being honest when they say they believe, but with what we know now about the nature of reality, they are being dishonest with themselves, sometimes willfully or unwittingly.

Beyond labels we have enough evidence throughout our species history of people making up gods/deities/super natural. What no modern claimant of any tradition has is evidence that thoughts can occur without a material process. I am sure they truly believe that, but they are in complete denial.

[Skepsis]

I don't think that there is a Muslim in existence who believes they are being dishonest with themselves in their belief.
I don't think that you can be "unwittingly dishonest" with yourself. I don't see how that is possible.
That said, I would have to say that Muslims and other strong belief systems with strong dogmas are most certainly projecting when they say atheists are being dishonest with themselves. They are projecting their own belief rather than their state of mind. When you reveal your lack of belief it isn't atypical for a theist, in this case, to doubt your drive; they have likely been indoctrinated against this very claim, being told that there is no such thing as a nonbeliever. We know, of course, that this isn't true, but that won't stop them from labeling you and then reciting whatever defence their proslytizer of choice taught them.

[Brian37]

Sure you can. It is called "willful ignorance". In other words despite what is right in front of your face you still believe in what is not true. Humans do that all the time, even outside the issue of religion.

If you know anyone who has been cheated on(hate that term, but that is a different story) you may have been aware that they have been told, and been shown evidence of the affair, but the person says to themselves "There is no way they could do that, I don't believe you".

In simple terms the word is "denial".

[Angrboda]

The narrow view is always closest to hand, the easiest to reach. The longer view takes work. And the willingness to open oneself up to one's own failings and vulnerability. And it usually hurts.

[Skepsis]

Denail is a form of cognitive dissonance, correct?
That is, you face the truth head on but fail to absorb the evidence?
It would appear that a person of this sort would know they are being dishonest, but supressing this thought. This isn't "uniwtting" dishonesty, this is supressed, knowing dishonesty.
I think my contention is derived from how I think of the word, "dishonest". It could just be a personal stigma on the word, but it seems that dishonesty is a deliberate action that must be taken at some point or another, rather than a state of mind like you are suggesting.

[Epimethean]

Sure you can. It is called "willful ignorance". In other words despite what is right in front of your face you still believe in what is not true. Humans do that all the time, even outside the issue of religion.

If you know anyone who has been cheated on(hate that term, but that is a different story) you may have been aware that they have been told, and been shown evidence of the affair, but the person says to themselves "There is no way they could do that, I don't believe you".

In simple terms the word is "denial".

There is a difference between "unwittingly dishonest," which, as Skepsis has pointed out is an oxymoron and being "willfully ignorant." The former makes no sense to the consciousness whereas the latter is a deliberately cultivated perspective.

[Ryantology]

I guess you're honest to yourself if your behaviors are in line with your thoughts, regardless of what those thoughts and behaviors are. Or, if you really believe what you say. This goes for Muslims as well as anyone else.

To say that a person is not being honest with themselves simply because you disagree with the belief in question is arrogant and quite possibly wrong. I don't doubt that the Westboro Baptists have cynical assholes among their number who just enjoy trolling decent human beings, but I think a lot of them are assholes who really belief the terrible things they say.

I think that's why people question the honesty of people's convictions in matters such as religion: a person who is earnest about a different belief is much more likely to be opposed to yours.

[Whateverist]

My first question, is do you feel Muslims are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs?

My 2nd question, why do you think some of them think Atheists are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs? Do you feel it maybe be self-projection?

As an agnostic I suspect no one is operating from a perspective of actual knowledge. So self honesty cannot be about accepting or rejecting the 'truth'. We simply don't know what that is.

Where people tend to fall into being dishonest with themselves is in regards to what they want to believe true versus what they have good reason to think true. Wishes aren't horses.

Here it is as easy for an atheist to fool themselves as it is a theist. Lots of people want the truth to be obvious and to think those who can't 'handle it' are defective.

I don't really have anything to base an opinion on regarding how honest Muslims as a whole may be with themselves. In general, I feel agnosticism is the key to keeping your head straight in these matters and it seems to be a position more rarely held by theists than by atheists, though it needn't be.

[Anomalocaris]

I haven't conducted a wide poll or anything, but I have asked a few Muslims in a chat room, if they think whether Atheists are honest to themselves or dishonest (about their beliefs).

They said they are being dishonest.

My first question, is do you feel Muslims are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs?

My 2nd question, why do you think some of them think Atheists are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs? Do you feel it maybe be self-projection?

1. Not all muslim are necessarily dishonest in any way about their belief. Many of them are genuinely that ignorant and genuinely lacking in the minimal knowledge and cognative foundation required to be able to even theoretically perceive the strength of the challenges to the the truth of the core and ancillary tenants of what they are told to believe.

2. Yes. How can any large belief gorup not contain some poeple who are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs?