This is What Global Warming Looks Like

[ib.me.ub]

Man, im not giving up my cheesburgers for anyone.

[Ace Otana]

After that light hearted aside -good stuff-, I wanted to touch a little on why overpopulation and population control need to remain separate from ACC. It's not just an issue of concerns over the practicality or ability to legislate/persuade/coerce such things...it's an issue of questionable effect.

I think Sir David Attenborough Explains that pretty well. Bloody good watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK0rXRmC4...H8ufOavkVg

[The Grand Nudger]

I've watched it, I find it less compelling than you do, for the reasons stated in my post. Those who champion population control (either explicitly or implicitly) do so by assuming that a whole laundry list of other conditions are met. Well, why not meet those conditions first and then take a look at population control? Doesn't that seem reasonable? Wouldn't that put the focus firmly on climate change and environmental concerns where it belongs -when discussing climate change and environmental concerns- rather than adding a layer of contention and the troubles of a social issue? More heresy from me...perhaps, just perhaps, if we were smarter about the way we live the capacity of this planet for human life wouldn't look so dismal? Deciding who and when and how many children one should have -even for yourself- is still a shit sandwich, if, of course, you want to have children. I understand that it may not seem as such if you don't, but make allowances for those that do.

[Ace Otana]

I've watched it, I find it less compelling than you do, for the reasons stated in my post. Those who champion population control (either explicitly or implicitly) do so by assuming that a whole laundry list of other conditions are met. Well, why not meet those conditions first and then take a look at population control? Doesn't that seem reasonable?

I don't agree on population control (as in telling people how many kids they can have), merely warning of the damage being done. When populations grow, you have to produce additional food supply, water, space and it all comes out of the environment. Finite planet, finite resources. We harm the environment for the benefit of the population. Damage increases with the population.

[The Grand Nudger]

We already produce more food than is necessary to feed our population. Production is not the issue Ace, distribution is. This rock is bountiful, overflowing with resources (finite yes but immensely so from our tiny POV), the distribution is now and has always been unfair. We could do something about that. We could also streamline our energy consumption in the process (as a great deal of energy is used to distribute resources).

Damage would increase with population, but lets consider for a moment how much damage is done through waste and inefficiency and consider that a heretofore untapped reservoir of elbow room for increased population (which is just as much an asset as any natural resource btw). That is an issue that can be handled without invoking population control (and would be required for population control to work in any case).

Again, a small number of us are behind the brunt of the damage to begin with.......doesn't that seem to be a problem of efficiency and not a problem of numbers? Let's try to use an analogy here. If you were running a business of 10 employees, and you determined that 1 of those employees accounted for 80% of your losses, 9/10 of these employees are not an issue, they do not account for any appreciable loss:

Would you-
fire 3 employees
fire 1 employee
retrain the employee you isolated
-dissolve the company- (nod to the luddites that might be lurking)
(I'm sure creative business owners could come up with more solutions than just these btw)

Which do you figure would have the best overall effect?

[Ace Otana]

We already produce more food than is necessary to feed our population. Production is not the issue Ace, distribution is.

Kinda true, the richer nations are better fed. However, Britain for example, cannot sustain itself food wise. Too many people to feed. If you took away trade, many of us would starve.
Even if food isn't a problem, fresh water is. Reservoirs are drying up all over. Land, we need lots of it for housing and jobs. Where will it come from? Green belts, the wildlife.
You cannot have an infinite population on a finite planet. I was taught that back in high school through simulations.
Was you taught about the rabbits and the foxes? Too many rabbits, no foxes and the resources will be used up, they die. Too many foxes and they die.

[ib.me.ub]

Man, if you tell me i cant have apples all year round, I wont be happy.

Distribution and Wealth are the issues, but Numbers will also become an issue at some stage. (must be close by now).

[The Grand Nudger]

Kinda true, the richer nations are better fed. However, Britain for example, cannot sustain itself food wise.

Welcome to the Global Village. As I said, the distribution of resources is unfair.

Even if food isn't a problem, fresh water is. Reservoirs are drying up all over.

Water being presumably one of the most common things in our galaxy I can only regard this a short term problem and again -tied directly to waste.

[Land, we need lots of it for housing and jobs. Where will it come from? Green belts, the wildlife.

Try thin air, build up not out.

You cannot have an infinite population on a finite planet. I was taught that back in high school through simulations.

Good thing we're mortal then.

Was you taught about the rabbits and the foxes? Too many rabbits, no foxes and the resources will be used up, they die. Too many foxes and they die.

We are neither rabbits nor foxes. Our pool of potential resources (and our ability to utilize them) are greater than either of those creatures by orders of magnitude. "Too many" is exactly our point of disagreement, so repeating it doesn't really help to sift through the reasons for our disagreement.

(since you seem intent on appealing to consequences that can be so easily questioned then I get to do so as well. Every child that isn't born is potentially the child that could have the eureka moment that solves this very "problem". You are ignoring the value of the human asset greatly, in my opinion.)

[Ace Otana]

Distribution and Wealth are the issues, but Numbers will also become an issue at some stage. (must be close by now).

It's already an issue. The problem is, most don't think it's a problem, and those that do are being ignored to the point where the naturalist David Attenborough with over 50 years experience of observing the enviroment change is being ignored. It's become a taboo subject.

Bit frustrating that.....

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Water being presumably one of the most common things in our galaxy I can only regards this a short term problem and again -tied directly to waste.

Do you even know where we get our fresh water from?

Try thin air, build up not out.

Money, resources and helpful politicians. Good luck finding good and honest politicians. That task makes the other two look a cake walk.

We are neither rabbits nor foxes.

It's an example, a simulation. The same applies to us.

[The Grand Nudger]

Do you even know where we get our fresh water from?

Really......really? Cry doom and then blissfully move on to a sideline? A variety of places, whose water are we talking about? Your's locally, I don't know where you are. Globally?

Money, resources and helpful politicians. Good luck finding good and honest politicians. That task makes the other two look a cake walk.

All of which are required for any housing project whatsoever and will be expended on them in any case regardless of what manner it is built in. Any form of population control would also require the exact same things, all I see is parity.

We are neither rabbits nor foxes.
It's an example, a simulation. The same applies to us.

Except that it doesn't, in so far as the scope and scale of rabbits and foxes are concerned.

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Environmental Damage- population control.
Not enough housing- population control.
Distribution of resources is unfair- population control
Ants on your lawn -population control
Bartender didn't get your cocktail right -population control



I'm personally of the opinion that any and everything should be offered up as a solution before population control becomes our answer. When someone says we have an issue, I default to "find the inefficiency" before proceeding. It may be that you and I have disagreement on this which we're unlikely to find middle ground on.