Hell

[Ace Otana]

There are concepts. Science's top objective is to conceptualize the world. What you call facts are science's best concepts.

Nope. Science is to understand the world not to make up concepts and assertions. That's religions job.

Yes, unless, of course, God reveals something to us about how to live.

I'm yet to see evidence of this god of yours.

Maybe you'll be lucky enough to be eaten by man, or just killed for sport - to decorate a trophy room.

What point are you trying to make here?

Some people behave aggressively towards their spouse. Specifically they beat them. Others enjoy humiliating, raping and killing other people. It brings them satisfaction to prove that they are more powerful or cunning or willing to do evil, so they overpower people and look down upon them, and they often harm or kill them.

That can be caused by their upbringing. People who do go around harming others clearly lack a logical mind. I would say anyone who behaves that way is mentally unstable. Once again, evil is only a man made concept.

But if someone wrongfully attacked you, then I would offer you the same assistance that I gave the innocent.

I would do the same. If you attacked others I will act to put an end to it. We both would do the same thing. Our morality comes from the same place. We just have different views on where it comes from.

No one is better off in one over another

I didn't say there is. That's not what I said.

because what rules people remains the same and concepts don't matter.

I agree.

Now you say that apes will fight for different reasons (instincts or concepts?), some instinctive some not. Just a second ago you said we were ruled by instincts alone

When did I say we are ruled by instincts alone? Of course we can act based on thought but we behave the way we would by nature. Doesn't mean we can't do things that may be a little distant from our instincts. Travelling to space isn't exactly natural and yet we go up there anyway. It's our curiosity and our ability to ask questions that ends up building a gap between instinct and thought. We are not entirely controlled be instincts but we are mostly controlled. I'd be surprised if every nation in the world said "ok this clearly is stupid, why not just disarm our nukes and get along? Clearly we'd end up killing ourselves and everything else on this planet". Why do we fight each other? I think instinct plays a role in that. If we had 100% reason/thought and total separation from instinct would we be smarter and be more able to make clear decisions?

So you help others to help yourself?

No, I help others because it's the smart thing to do. If you saw someone about to fall off a bridge you'd instantly go and help them out. I think instinct and thought both play a role in your actions. Thinking of others is natural for us as social animals but also our intelligence tell us to help. I don't think you'd spend 2 seconds thinking about it. If we had no instincts would we react as fast as we would? Would pure intellect be fast enough? A dog would run without thought to chase down a cat. Especially if there are a pack of dogs chasing it. I know because my dog has done that. He is the most friendly animal I know and he'd never chase after anything but the sight of charging dogs chasing a cat told his instincts to join in the attack. No command would get through to him. Instincts do control us and others all the time, we just have a little more thought and we can question our instincts.

So, your point is that conflict should continue since it's natural.

That's not what I said. I've lost count on the amount of times you put words in my mouth.
I didn't say it should continue, I'm saying it's natural. We can prevent conflicts but we tend to be too stupid to do that.

Anti-social humans need to be aware of social standards if they wish to trick others into following them and doing their bidding.

I've....lost you here.

The group may have rules or goals that the individual may disagree with, do you agree?

Indeed. Happens often. Instinct and thought both play a role in that.

--
We do agree with a number of things but not when it comes to where we get our morality. We are both just as moral as each other. We'd both do moral things to save others. Reasons are a little different but the drive to do it is the same. We are more alike than unalike. We just have different views to where we get our morality. We get our morality from the same place, it's only our views that differ.

After typing all that, I think I need a nice glass of wine. Care to join me?

[Edwardo Piet]

Apparently God thinks teaching by example is most effective. If you know of a better way then share it please.

Since God knows everything, and can do anything. Why didn't he simply create humans in the first place so they can only do good, so they didn't need teaching, and why didn't he make life fair, so no one suffers? And so he's actually just?

God is just if he makes life fair.

God is unjust if he makes life unfair, even though he has the power to make it fair.

The people who are willing to die for sin like Jesus are the ones that God will have mercy on I believe.

For those who don't do that, it's his fault, he has made them that way. He could have made everyone perfect like him, so there would be no 'evil-doing' or 'sinning', but no he didn't...he doesn't want that...

He doesn't want a fair world, he wants an unfair world. He must do, since he made the world unfair, despite the fact he has the power to make it fair. How is that just? He's allowing suffering when he doesn't need to.

You could say people are choosing to do evil, but that's ultimately his fault anyway - because why didn't he just make people more moral and the world a better place from the outset? Why didn't he determine a just, fair, moral, happy, and perfect reality rather than an unfair imperfect one?

The people who were/are willing to kill Jesus will be dealt with by God's wrath - they will have no excuse.

He could have determined a universe without any killing or evil. Since he can do anything, since he's omnipotent. It's his fault.

And there's no evidence that people can, at any given moment, do anything other than they're doing anyway. So it's insane to punish people eternally in hell, when they couldn't have done otherwise, unless something influenced them to do otherwise. God isn't teaching them anything, not any 'lesson', when he punishes them. He's just being dumb and a sadist.

Well, he would be, if he existed.

EvF

[Retorth]

Ecolox, perfection can only come from perfection. Imperfection cannot come from perfection. With that said, god is imperfect. If he is imperfect, he cannot be "god'.

[ecolox]

Apparently God thinks teaching by example is most effective. If you know of a better way then share it please.

Since God knows everything, and can do anything. Why didn't he simply create humans in the first place so they can only do good, so they didn't need teaching, and why didn't he make life fair, so no one suffers? And so he's actually just?

If you thought freedom had value then you needn't have said anything at all.

---

We do agree with a number of things but not when it comes to where we get our morality. We are both just as moral as each other. We'd both do moral things to save others. Reasons are a little different but the drive to do it is the same. We are more alike than unalike. We just have different views to where we get our morality. We get our morality from the same place, it's only our views that differ.

But, naturally, you might eat someone.

---

Ecolox, perfection can only come from perfection. Imperfection cannot come from perfection. With that said, god is imperfect. If he is imperfect, he cannot be "god'.

Apparently perfection can degrade with freedom. We degraded. God is still God.

[Retorth]

Ecolox, perfection can only come from perfection. Imperfection cannot come from perfection. With that said, god is imperfect. If he is imperfect, he cannot be "god'.

Apparently perfection can degrade with freedom. We degraded. God is still God.

How do you mean? I was under the impression that perfection is..well..perfection. It should not be able to change otherwise it isn't perfection to begin with.

[Edwardo Piet]

Apparently God thinks teaching by example is most effective. If you know of a better way then share it please.

Since God knows everything, and can do anything. Why didn't he simply create humans in the first place so they can only do good, so they didn't need teaching, and why didn't he make life fair, so no one suffers? And so he's actually just?[/quote]

If you thought freedom had value then you needn't have said anything at all.

Of course freedom has value. It's one of the most important factors of well being. And so is absence of pain and horror and killing and death and suffering in general.

So since God is perfect, how come he can't create people so they are all naturally good and happy, and also have plenty freedom to express themselves?

If someone is naturally a saint, does this mean they don't have the freedom to do evil? No. They just don't, because they're incredibly good.

I'm not suggesting that a Good God would make people do Good, I'm not talking about a policeman God. I'm talking about him creating humanity in the first place, so they just naturally are, good. And naturally don't, do evil. And he can determine it so that when he creates them like this, they never go off track. They have the freedom to do evil, but they don't, because they are created to naturally be good. So no freedoms are messed with, and everyone is still good and happy.

Do you honestly believe that a perfect God could not determine a universe where humanity - and other life - lives in a whole lot better world and are a whole lot better and happier, naturally - or IOW, 'freely' - despite the fact he is apparently omnipotent and can do anything, and is apparently perfectly loving, omni-benevolent? (In your view I assume? Arcanus says Christians don't believe God is omni benevolent...do you?).

And since God is omniscient, he knows what humans are going to do, and they are going to do that because he knows they will, so there is no "free will" anyway...just external freedom. Which in a world with a truly loving God, people could still have, they just naturally wouldn't use their freedom to do evil because a truly loving God would just naturally create humans that just didn't want to do evil.

He would program perfection into them, they wouldn't be unfree to do otherwise, they just wouldn't want to, because they wouldn't want to do other than perfect. It's not that they 'couldn't'. If things were different they could. The world would be better and people would be happier.

From out outside perspective, it might seem boring and not worth living in a world programmed by God like that. But that's just it: That's looking from our outside perspective. If an alternative world people really were created by God to be perfect and never do Evil, ever, to be perfectly moral in every way, and perfectly happy and fulfilled in every way: Then by definition their lives couldn't be bleak, or boring or not worth living. By definition it couldn't be, or God would have not created them perfect. It only looks bleak from imperfect outsiders such as ourselves...

EvF

[ecolox]

Apparently God thinks teaching by example is most effective. If you know of a better way then share it please.

Since God knows everything, and can do anything. Why didn't he simply create humans in the first place so they can only do good, so they didn't need teaching, and why didn't he make life fair, so no one suffers? And so he's actually just?

If you thought freedom had value then you needn't have said anything at all.

Of course freedom has value. It's one of the most important factors of well being. And so is absence of pain and horror and killing and death and suffering in general.

So since God is perfect, how come he can't create people so they are all naturally good and happy, and also have plenty freedom to express themselves?

If someone is naturally a saint, does this mean they don't have the freedom to do evil? No. They just don't, because they're incredibly good.

I'm not suggesting that a Good God would make people do Good, I'm not talking about a policeman God. I'm talking about him creating humanity in the first place, so they just naturally are, good. And naturally don't, do evil. And he can determine it so that when he creates them like this, they never go off track. They have the freedom to do evil, but they don't, because they are created to naturally be good. So no freedoms are messed with, and everyone is still good and happy.

Do you honestly believe that a perfect God could not determine a universe where humanity - and other life - lives in a whole lot better world and are a whole lot better and happier, naturally - or IOW, 'freely' - despite the fact he is apparently omnipotent and can do anything, and is apparently perfectly loving, omni-benevolent? (In your view I assume? Arcanus says Christians don't believe God is omni benevolent...do you?).

And since God is omniscient, he knows what humans are going to do, and they are going to do that because he knows they will, so there is no "free will" anyway...just external freedom. Which in a world with a truly loving God, people could still have, they just naturally wouldn't use their freedom to do evil because a truly loving God would just naturally create humans that just didn't want to do evil.

He would program perfection into them, they wouldn't be unfree to do otherwise, they just wouldn't want to, because they wouldn't want to do other than perfect. It's not that they 'couldn't'. If things were different they could. The world would be better and people would be happier.

From out outside perspective, it might seem boring and not worth living in a world programmed by God like that. But that's just it: That's looking from our outside perspective. If an alternative world people really were created by God to be perfect and never do Evil, ever, to be perfectly moral in every way, and perfectly happy and fulfilled in every way: Then by definition their lives couldn't be bleak, or boring or not worth living. By definition it couldn't be, or God would have not created them perfect. It only looks bleak from imperfect outsiders such as ourselves...

EvF

Too much text, too much repetition. In sum, curiosity...do you think God should have banned curiosity from His consciously intelligent creations? Even people who do good all of their lives can wonder about evil, try it and get hooked.

---

Ecolox, perfection can only come from perfection. Imperfection cannot come from perfection. With that said, god is imperfect. If he is imperfect, he cannot be "god'.

Apparently perfection can degrade with freedom. We degraded. God is still God.

How do you mean? I was under the impression that perfection is..well..perfection. It should not be able to change otherwise it isn't perfection to begin with.

I'm not sure how you rely on a definition of perfection that excludes the potential to be imperfect.

[solarwave]

How is justice done by him torturing and having himself killed?

If a policeman caught someone raping a woman, and he instead had himself punished, is that justice? No, I think not.

This has made me realise i dont fully understand how the death of Jesus saves, so im looking into it now.

But to try and answer you question I'll say it is mercy not justice.

Since God knows everything, and can do anything. Why didn't he simply create humans in the first place so they can only do good, so they didn't need teaching, and why didn't he make life fair, so no one suffers? And so he's actually just?

God is just if he makes life fair.

God is unjust if he makes life unfair, even though he has the power to make it fair.

If we can only do good it isn't full free will is it. Bad things happening is just part of the world we live in.

[theVOID]

How is justice done by him torturing and having himself killed?

If a policeman caught someone raping a woman, and he instead had himself punished, is that justice? No, I think not.

This has made me realise i dont fully understand how the death of Jesus saves, so im looking into it now.

But to try and answer you question I'll say it is mercy not justice.

How is it mercy?

Since God knows everything, and can do anything. Why didn't he simply create humans in the first place so they can only do good, so they didn't need teaching, and why didn't he make life fair, so no one suffers? And so he's actually just?

God is just if he makes life fair.

God is unjust if he makes life unfair, even though he has the power to make it fair.

If we can only do good it isn't full free will is it. Bad things happening is just part of the world we live in.

We have the choice between 'good' and 'evil' i agree, but what for the children born into evil homes? Born into famine? Born into disease? These children do not chose between good and evil prior to life, thus they are born into this poverty unfairly and regardless of whether or not they chose 'good' or 'evil' throughout their lives, they are still afflicted with poverty and suffering, all whilst under the watchful eye of God.

[chatpilot]

It all boils down to the Christians free will argument. As in real life we are all responsible for our own actions. The Christian spin on this fact is that God from the beginning of our "creation" gave us the choice to do good or evil. He places man in a garden and does exactly what no normal person with an understanding of psychology would do. He places a tree in the garden and prohibits man from partaking of the fruits of that tree. The seed of curiosity has already been planted and then to add fuel to the fire he allows a tempter in the form of a serpent to stimulate that curiosity and cause man to fall.

If there is one thing I have learned about the biblical God it's that he loves to play stupid games that bring into question his so called omniscience. When he freed the Hebrews from Egypt instead of taking them directly to the promised land he has them wander in the desert for 40 years to try and test them. Why the need to test and try his creation if he already knows what the outcome is going to be?

@solarwave the supposed death of Christ serves as a propitiation for the sins of mankind. In the O.T. this was done through the use of a scapegoat, usually an animal to whom you could ritualistically transfer your sins to that animal. Then the animal would be sacrificed and your sins would be forgiven. But these sacrifices had to be done over and over again since they did not fully wipe away your sin but rather cover your sins in the sight of God. This was a type of the ultimate sacrifice of Christ. His death washed away all sin and reconciles you with God once and for all through faith in him.

Romans 3:23-26
23.For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24.Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25.Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26.To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.