Hell

[Edwardo Piet]

Isn't it a huge act of humility for the creator of the universe to be born as a creature then ripped and killed by the ones He created and having their sin put on Him as He dies by their hands?

I don't think so. If he's really "God", if he's 'all-powerful' and 'all-loving', then why does he need to incarnate himself as a human and get himself tortured by 'sinners' in order to forgive their sins by putting those sins onto him? Why can't he do that without getting himself tortured? How crudely barbaric a method of forgiving sins, for a so called benevolent God IMO.

EvF

[Ace Otana]

"Being socially minded" and "caring for others" are concepts too it seems

Not really. It's been found through scientific study of animal behaviour and how the brain functions. Unlike your god morality it is proven.

why do you accept them as authoritative while rejecting the common notion of "good and evil"

Because good and evil are man made concepts. There is no such thing as good and evil. It is no more evil for a tiger to hunt down other animals for food. What we do like coming together in huge groups is natural to us by nature. We survive better in groups. We are hard wired for this. Being socially minded plays a huge role in how we think and care for each other. Now why should I believe some god gave us morality when no one has yet provided any evidence for a god?

Moral and decency is natural social behavior - does that mean we should go about naked and fight to the death for a chance to mate?

What?!

Our self awareness gives us the ability to think, question and improve on the standards of living, to understand that actions we take or think of means we can think rationally about weather to do or not. Why the hell would we revert back to our ancestral behaviour?

Ok, but ultimately it's unnecessary.

If it was we wouldn't have them.

You don't have to hold to social mindedness in order to have society or to better your survival.

It plays a huge role and so you kinda do need social standards. Despite our intellect, we are still controlled by our instincts. Being able to question and understand just means we can understand a good deal about our environment. We in fact can alter the environment to what ever we wish. We are doing it right now.

Do you think that individual mindedness could clash with social mindedness?

No. Animals tend to think independently despite being controlled by instinct. Unique personalities.

[solarwave]

I don't think so. If he's really "God", if he's 'all-powerful' and 'all-loving', then why does he need to incarnate himself as a human and get himself tortured by 'sinners' in order to forgive their sins by putting those sins onto him? Why can't he do that without getting himself tortured? How crudely barbaric a method of forgiving sins, for a so called benevolent God IMO.

God is just so can't simply forgive sins. Justice calls for a payment for sin, but mercy calls for forgiveness, so Jesus pays the price for our sin instead of us.

[ecolox]

"Being socially minded" and "caring for others" are concepts too it seems

Not really. It's been found through scientific study of animal behaviour and how the brain functions. Unlike your god morality it is proven.

So are you learning these concepts from science or is science just "preaching to the choir" - (i.e. your animal behavior and brain functions are what they are, no science or proving needed whatsoever).

why do you accept them as authoritative while rejecting the common notion of "good and evil"

Because good and evil are man made concepts. There is no such thing as good and evil. It is no more evil for a tiger to hunt down other animals for food. What we do like coming together in huge groups is natural to us by nature. We survive better in groups. We are hard wired for this. Being socially minded plays a huge role in how we think and care for each other. Now why should I believe some god gave us morality when no one has yet provided any evidence for a god?

The findings of science are man-made and subject to error and revision.
You said a hunting tiger is no more evil than what?? A human hunting a human for food?
If you look into the history of man you'll find that huge groups (like society today) has never been natural or hard-wired. The U.S. society is based on concepts (e.g. the Constitution, etc).
We have conflict on every level due to clashes between individuals and society.
God gives morality meaning. Why should you abstain from crime and support the punishment of criminals? Especially, why should you avoid doing things that you can get away with and that would be beneficial to you?

Moral and decency is natural social behavior - does that mean we should go about naked and fight to the death for a chance to mate?

Our self awareness gives us the ability to think, question and improve on the standards of living, to understand that actions we take or think of means we can think rationally about weather to do or not. Why the hell would we revert back to our ancestral behaviour?

Why the hell wouldn't we revert back to our ancestral behavior? It was hard-wired then, and its hard-wired now...right? Or are you relying on concepts now?

Ok, but ultimately it's unnecessary.

If it was we wouldn't have them.

Since it can be thought of as unnecessary, conflict is rampant.

You don't have to hold to social mindedness in order to have society or to better your survival.

It plays a huge role and so you kinda do need social standards. Despite our intellect, we are still controlled by our instincts. Being able to question and understand just means we can understand a good deal about our environment. We in fact can alter the environment to what ever we wish. We are doing it right now.

You need to be aware of social standards in order to create a convincing illusion, of course. Other than that I'm not sure what you're getting at...

Do you think that individual mindedness could clash with social mindedness?

No. Animals tend to think independently despite being controlled by instinct. Unique personalities.

So unique personalities could never clash with the group?

[Ace Otana]

So are you learning these concepts from science or is science just "preaching to the choir" - (i.e. your animal behavior and brain functions are what they are, no science or proving needed whatsoever)

They are not concepts but facts. Thanks to modern technology we can examine with detail how the brain functions. It's social ties that are found often with social animals are there by nature. Studying animal behaviour shows how social thinking works. There is no preaching as you say and there are no concepts. It's called scientific findings.

The findings of science are man-made and subject to error and revision.

Religion is man made and subject to error.

A human hunting a human for food?

That actually happened many times in history. It's not evil though. Maybe a little uncivilised from our view point but not evil.

If you look into the history of man you'll find that huge groups (like society today) has never been natural or hard-wired.

They have. We behave aggressively towards other races, to other cultures invading territory, and to possible threats to family and friends. We are still controlled by nature. We are still controlled by natural instincts. From running into a burning house to save a family member to acting aggressively towards others. A horse would run into a burning barn. It does this because it's instincts tell it to. A moth flies into flames, it does this instinctively.

The U.S. society is based on concepts (e.g. the Constitution, etc).

I don't know much about the US but that means fuck all for nature. We are still animals and we are still controlled by instincts regardless of what concepts we decide to make.

We have conflict on every level due to clashes between individuals and society.

Different groups of apes go to war with each other often due to different reasons, some instinctive some not. We behave just like apes do but just a little better at killing things.

God gives morality meaning.

For you, not for me. I have yet to see any evidence of this god you speak of.

Why should you abstain from crime and support the punishment of criminals? Especially, why should you avoid doing things that you can get away with and that would be beneficial to you?

Because I think of others and I tend to gain more through helping others. If we all chose to think it's ok to do crime, there would be no society.

Why the hell wouldn't we revert back to our ancestral behavior? It was hard-wired then, and its hard-wired now...right? Or are you relying on concepts now?

It's called evolution.

Since it can be thought of as unnecessary, conflict is rampant.

Conflict is natural between all species. Social animal groups can and do fight other groups. Conflict will increase should food supply dwindle or territory threatened.

You need to be aware of social standards in order to create a convincing illusion, of course. Other than that I'm not sure what you're getting at...

You do not need to be aware of anything in order to be social animals. We are naturally social animals.

So unique personalities could never clash with the group?

Nope. No one has the same personality. Human or animal. Would be strange if it was.

[ecolox]

So are you learning these concepts from science or is science just "preaching to the choir" - (i.e. your animal behavior and brain functions are what they are, no science or proving needed whatsoever)

They are not concepts but facts. Thanks to modern technology we can examine with detail how the brain functions. It's social ties that are found often with social animals are there by nature. Studying animal behaviour shows how social thinking works. There is no preaching as you say and there are no concepts. It's called scientific findings.

There are concepts. Science's top objective is to conceptualize the world. What you call facts are science's best concepts.

The findings of science are man-made and subject to error and revision.

Religion is man made and subject to error.

Yes, unless, of course, God reveals something to us about how to live.

A human hunting a human for food?

That actually happened many times in history. It's not evil though. Maybe a little uncivilised from our view point but not evil.

Maybe you'll be lucky enough to be eaten by man, or just killed for sport - to decorate a trophy room.

If you look into the history of man you'll find that huge groups (like society today) has never been natural or hard-wired.

They have. We behave aggressively towards other races, to other cultures invading territory, and to possible threats to family and friends. We are still controlled by nature. We are still controlled by natural instincts. From running into a burning house to save a family member to acting aggressively towards others. A horse would run into a burning barn. It does this because it's instincts tell it to. A moth flies into flames, it does this instinctively.

Some people behave aggressively towards their spouse. Specifically they beat them. Others enjoy humiliating, raping and killing other people. It brings them satisfaction to prove that they are more powerful or cunning or willing to do evil, so they overpower people and look down upon them, and they often harm or kill them. There are people that would be happy to come to your home and beat you senseless, take all of the things you use to live, and leave you never to return. Others would be happy to kill your family and all of your friends - some may require a little money or other compensation. All of these things must be natural and unpunishable. There is no justice to be had because there is no right or wrong, good or evil. What you're saying is that there is no such thing as an innocent person who deserves to live or who deserves their keep or respect. You're point is that people live and die and it doesn't matter how - besides, no one has any control over how anyway. Naturally if I saw you (by nature) attacking an innocent (for food or joy) I would dispatch you to save the innocent because of my concept of God, good and evil, justice, and so on. But if someone wrongfully attacked you, then I would offer you the same assistance that I gave the innocent.

The U.S. society is based on concepts (e.g. the Constitution, etc).

I don't know much about the US but that means fuck all for nature. We are still animals and we are still controlled by instincts regardless of what concepts we decide to make.

Is your point that all nations are the same? No one is better off in one over another - because what rules people remains the same and concepts don't matter.

We have conflict on every level due to clashes between individuals and society.

Different groups of apes go to war with each other often due to different reasons, some instinctive some not. We behave just like apes do but just a little better at killing things.

Now you say that apes will fight for different reasons (instincts or concepts?), some instinctive some not. Just a second ago you said we were ruled by instincts alone and concepts don't matter. But now apes can be motivated by non-instinctual [concepts]. Terrorist bombers can use concepts.

God gives morality meaning.

For you, not for me. I have yet to see any evidence of this god you speak of.

You don't believe in morality (good and evil) either; too conceptual and invisible.

Why should you abstain from crime and support the punishment of criminals? Especially, why should you avoid doing things that you can get away with and that would be beneficial to you?

Because I think of others and I tend to gain more through helping others. If we all chose to think it's ok to do crime, there would be no society.

So you help others to help yourself? Jesus said to secretly help those who cannot repay you.
Even criminals can be beaten into a society (ruled by force) - e.g. the organized crime of gangs and mobs.

Why the hell wouldn't we revert back to our ancestral behavior? It was hard-wired then, and its hard-wired now...right? Or are you relying on concepts now?

It's called evolution.

Our genes don't allow us to be nomadic hunters and gatherers? What are you saying?

Since it can be thought of as unnecessary, conflict is rampant.

Conflict is natural between all species. Social animal groups can and do fight other groups. Conflict will increase should food supply dwindle or territory threatened.

So, your point is that conflict should continue since it's natural.

You need to be aware of social standards in order to create a convincing illusion, of course. Other than that I'm not sure what you're getting at...

You do not need to be aware of anything in order to be social animals. We are naturally social animals.

Anti-social humans need to be aware of social standards if they wish to trick others into following them and doing their bidding.

So unique personalities could never clash with the group?

Nope. No one has the same personality. Human or animal. Would be strange if it was.

You don't quite get it. Rephrase: The group may have rules or goals that the individual may disagree with, do you agree?

[Edwardo Piet]

God is just so can't simply forgive sins. Justice calls for a payment for sin, but mercy calls for forgiveness, so Jesus pays the price for our sin instead of us.

How is justice done by him torturing and having himself killed?

If a policeman caught someone raping a woman, and he instead had himself punished, is that justice? No, I think not.

How do bad people learn anything, or how are they dealt with, by God incarnating himself as a mortal and having himself then tortured and killed by the so-called 'sinners'?

EvF

[ecolox]

God is just so can't simply forgive sins. Justice calls for a payment for sin, but mercy calls for forgiveness, so Jesus pays the price for our sin instead of us.

How is justice done by him torturing and having himself killed?

Jesus was killed by free-agents - the self-righteous whose authority was threatened.

Jesus proved his righteousness by holding strong until death - he could have escaped but it was necessary for him to take on the worst the self-righteous could deal (the highest test). And he did by faith I'm sure. His life is an example to all of us. We should be willing to die for sin (for our own, for others), just as Jesus was willing...through this God's wrath is quenched.

Side-note: If I'm not mistaken Jesus was forgiving people prior to being killed.

[Edwardo Piet]

But God knew what would happen to Jesus, so why would a loving God not find a better way to forgive sins than let Jesus be tortured and die? Why not actually teach them a lesson properly, rather than letting them murder his Son, who is actually him incarnated in human form?

EvF

[ecolox]

But God knew what would happen to Jesus, so why would a loving God not find a better way to forgive sins than let Jesus be tortured and die? Why not actually teach them a lesson properly, rather than letting them murder his Son, who is actually him incarnated in human form?

Apparently God thinks teaching by example is most effective. If you know of a better way then share it please.

The people who are willing to die for sin like Jesus are the ones that God will have mercy on I believe.

The people who were/are willing to kill Jesus will be dealt with by God's wrath - they will have no excuse.