Hell

[Meatball]

I did some reading after Frodo(in another thread) mentioned the SDA belief of annihilationism being a fringe element, and there's certainly a case for it based on scripture. The problem is that scripture is so varied and ambiguous and there's no definitive answer.

I think annihilationism is the most consistent with the idea of a loving and merciful god though.

Some interesting reading:
Annihilationism
The problem of hell

[solarwave]

Nature. We are naturally social by nature, in other words moral by nature. God had nothing to do with it.

I mean what you call good someone else might not, natures morality isn't absolute.

Could you be specific? Also do you have evidence?

Eg: The christian God is real. If this is correct then praying for healing in the name of Jesus should have people healed. People are healed in the name of Jesus and this happens a decent amount of times, therefore it is likely Yahweh is real.

Thats just one quickly thought out example.

[Ace Otana]

I mean what you call good someone else might not, natures morality isn't absolute.

No, what YOU call good I call natural social behaviour. Nature doesn't deal in morality, it deals in instinct and survival. We are social animals and we seem to work best in groups. Good and evil does not exist. They are only concepts, what does exist is nature given social behaviour amongst social animals like us. Cats don't look out for each other. They never run in the same direction and never stand together. It's because they are not social animals, they work alone. Morality does not exist in nature.

The christian God is real.

Evidence please...

If this is correct then praying for healing in the name of Jesus should have people healed.

How comes god can't heal amputees?

People are healed in the name of Jesus and this happens a decent amount of times, therefore it is likely Yahweh is real.

Not really. There is often a scientific explanation to it.
You could point out these so called healed people. Evidence is once again required. You've made some very large assertions that have no evidence to back them up.

[solarwave]

No, what YOU call good I call natural social behaviour. Nature doesn't deal in morality, it deals in instinct and survival. We are social animals and we seem to work best in groups. Good and evil does not exist. They are only concepts, what does exist is nature given social behaviour amongst social animals like us. Cats don't look out for each other. They never run in the same direction and never stand together. It's because they are not social animals, they work alone. Morality does not exist in nature.

Bold statements no evidence

How comes god can't heal amputees?

I never said He couldn't or that He hasn't.

Not really. There is often a scientific explanation to it.
You could point out these so called healed people. Evidence is once again required. You've made some very large assertions that have no evidence to back them up.

Whenever I talk about healings to atheists I onl ever mean instant things like deaf people hearing, blind people seeing. Quite hard to point out these people when you live where ever you do. Im not saying what i've seen should prove it to you, Im saying its something you probably need to seek yourself if you care to.

[Ace Otana]

Bold statements no evidence

Wrong, some evidence exists in the behaviour of animals. It's called study and research. Elephants look out for each other, and guess what? They are social animals and move in groups. They would never abandon one of their own. Now it is you who fails to provide evidence of a god given morality. God is an assertion that has gone unproved for a very long time now.

I never said He couldn't or that He hasn't.

So you have evidence that he has?

Im not saying what i've seen should prove it to you, Im saying its something you probably need to seek yourself if you care to.

It is something I looked into....but still remain unconvinced. There is no evidence.

[solarwave]

Wrong, some evidence exists in the behaviour of animals. It's called study and research. Elephants look out for each other, and guess what? They are social animals and move in groups. They would never abandon one of their own. Now it is you who fails to provide evidence of a god given morality. God is an assertion that has gone unproved for a very long time now.

I was talking more about when you said 'Good and evil does not exist'.

So you have evidence that he has?

I have recently come across claims of this but I havn't looked into it fully yet.

It is something I looked into....but still remain unconvinced. There is no evidence.

Ok then. This isn't me trying that hard to convince you at the moment since I plan to make a thread on my reasoning for God soon and because you dont seem all that open to anything I have to say, which is totally your choice of course.

[Ace Otana]

I was talking more about when you said 'Good and evil does not exist'.

Ah well then, from a scientific view point then. Slight misunderstanding. Not the first time.
Oh and whilst on the subject...if I were to claim there is no god, could you prove me wrong? Though it's wrong to claim something that I cannot prove but you can't quite prove me wrong. Unless you got evidence.
It forces you to back up your claim of their being a god or fail to prove me wrong. I could be right. Well half right, right about there being no god but wrong for claiming to know that. (I'm not claiming that there is no god by the way, it's raising a point)

I have recently come across claims of this but I havn't looked into it fully yet.

I'll wait for that day. You can count on it.

This isn't me trying that hard to convince you at the moment since I plan to make a thread on my reasoning for God soon and because you dont seem all that open to anything I have to say, which is totally your choice of course.

I am open minded but just not very open to superstitions. I have rejected religion and it's claims all my life. Not once have I ever believed in a god or afterlife. Never have I been anywhere close to it. Still see the whole religious thing as false and completely unprovable. Something not to worry about and to ignore on my day to day life(apart from online debates such as this).

[ecolox]

Well good and evil are only concepts. Being socially minded is natural to all of us by nature. So if that's not good enough to get into this made up place you call heaven then I have no choice but to go to hell for being decent thus proving how immoral god is.

In the Christian belief - God requires people like you to realize how far they are from being good (conceptually). The people who realize they are selfish repent. The self-righteous do not.

-- If you do not have the capacity to realize your faults, then you cannot be guilty.

Being good or evil are only concepts. Being socially minded by nature has nothing to do with god.

"Being socially minded is natural" - but ultimately unnecessary (right?). Which means there is plenty of room for individual mindedness.

[Ace Otana]

In the Christian belief - God requires people like you to realize how far they are from being good (conceptually). The people who realize they are selfish repent. The self-righteous do not.

I don't believe I'm selfish. I don't believe in good and evil for they are concepts. Being socially minded is caring for others. I am not in the christian belief, I'm an atheist and I see moral and decency as natural social behaviour from social animals like us. From my point of view, god had nothing to do with our social behaviour.

"Being socially minded is natural" - but ultimately unnecessary (right?).

No, it is extremely necessary for being socially minded. If we never worked together or helped each other we'd have no society. Some large reasons for being social is to better our survival. Animals like elephants and many other social animals stay together. It is very difficult to take on an elephant young and old if your in numbers. Which is why they are hard wired to be social and stand together like we do.

Which means there is plenty of room for individual mindedness.

Individual thoughts is something most animals have. We have the ability to question and have some understanding about our enviroment. We can make up gods to fill in missing gaps of infomation for which we have done for many thousands of years. Being able to think and question is an amazing ability but no matter what our individual thoughts, we are far from immune from making errors. Religions can be as wrong as the belief that the world is flat.

[ecolox]

In the Christian belief - God requires people like you to realize how far they are from being good (conceptually). The people who realize they are selfish repent. The self-righteous do not.

I don't believe I'm selfish. I don't believe in good and evil for they are concepts. Being socially minded is caring for others. I am not in the christian belief, I'm an atheist and I see moral and decency as natural social behaviour from social animals like us. From my point of view, god had nothing to do with our social behaviour.

The self-righteous does not give blame where blame is due - hence their ability to be self-righteous and selfish.

"Being socially minded" and "caring for others" are concepts too it seems...why do you accept them as authoritative while rejecting the common notion of "good and evil".

Moral and decency is natural social behavior - does that mean we should go about naked and fight to the death for a chance to mate?

"Being socially minded is natural" - but ultimately unnecessary (right?).

No, it is extremely necessary for being socially minded. If we never worked together or helped each other we'd have no society. Some large reasons for being social is to better our survival. Animals like elephants and many other social animals stay together. It is very difficult to take on an elephant young and old if your in numbers. Which is why they are hard wired to be social and stand together like we do.

Ok, but ultimately it's unnecessary. You don't have to hold to social mindedness in order to have society or to better your survival. It is possible to give the illusion of social mindedness to gain power and standing - to build society, ultimately, for your purposes.

Which means there is plenty of room for individual mindedness.

Individual thoughts is something most animals have. We have the ability to question and have some understanding about our enviroment. We can make up gods to fill in missing gaps of infomation for which we have done for many thousands of years. Being able to think and question is an amazing ability but no matter what our individual thoughts, we are far from immune from making errors. Religions can be as wrong as the belief that the world is flat.

Do you think that individual mindedness could clash with social mindedness?