The logical consequences of omnipotence

[Esquilax]

Are you all saints by the way?

Lust-Gluttony-Greed-Sloth-Wrath-Envy-Pride.

These sins look very familiar to me.

I've always been a fan of Lust. It's a victimless crime, and if you do it right, works out well for multiple parties.

[Celi]

You neglected to actually draw a link between not believing the world is perfect and being 'cruel and hurt'.

I thought it was obvious. If you accept that injustice happens, then you live by that. You have less reason to be just yourself, because that would to be to put yourself at a disadvantage in how you understand the world to operate. Do you see how this would be different if you understood there to be complete justice? How a person rationalising justice prevailing might have a totally different outlook to yourself?

Oh, I get it. You're saying that someone with belief in absolute justice is more motivated to do good things and avoid doing bad things. I suppose I can understand that.

But people do have an ingrained sense of morality. Like I mentioned a few pages back, people don't need the promise of Heaven or the threat of Hell to follow their own morals, and while I know you're not talking about the afterlife specifically here, it still applies. You say that I 'have less reason to just be [my]self' because that would put [my]self at a disadvantage in how [I] understand the world to operate.' You assume that a lack of belief in absolute justice leads necessarily to cynicism, which isn't true. I recognize that, in the chaotic universe I live in, I could ignore morality altogether, which would often be to my material advantage. But I don't want to. Through reason and my ingrained sense of morality, I can follow my own morals. Same goes for any sane person.

In fact, I'd argue that if either of us is cynical, it's you--you assume that in a chaotic universe, people would have no reason not to be complete asses to each other all the time. I have more faith (heh, not that kind of faith, you know what I mean) in humanity.

[fr0d0]

I didn't say " you can just be yourself", I said you can be 'just' as in fair yourself.

You kid yourself Cali. And you don't seem to want to understand.

Religion is based on the human moral instinct. You have no reason to view the world as a 'just' place, and your morality must reflect that. otherwise you have some serous cognitive dissonance going on.

Carrot and stick... a posthumous Heaven and hell are not needed to motivate a believer. Heaven is right here and right now. The only caveat is the choice to give in to our sinful nature and revert to our default state.

Apparent goodness as you describe is worthless when compared to ultimate goodness. Sure I always felt I was a good person too. I never said you had to be a bad and immoral person. And Just because a person believes, that doesn't mean natural influences can't obscure their reasoning.

Whole thing is simply this: a positive world view is different to a neutral world view. The former results in more abundant life.

[Ryantology]

Your world view dictates it. It's what underlies your reasoning. Of course in the short term there are benefits to positivity. How else would you see the potential in my world view, and how would I reason to hold it?

You make assumptions based on your inability to understand. I find it entirely possible to be positive, long-term.

If anything, I think we have it better, because we can be positive about real things. Our happiness doesn't require an imaginary crutch to sustain it.

I'm not saying it's impossible for you to know happiness. I'm saying the bigger picture is bleak ... because you can't reason beyond the ultimate fact of injustice which over arches your world view.

There is only ever justice where humans make it. Justice is a human invention. The world is not just. Nature is not just. Your god is not just, either, not by any standard I or any sane individual recognizes.

What sustains your contentment, when the going gets tough? What resolve can you dig deep into to get you through? I'm not talking about some fake hope of something distant. I'm talking about a reasoned assurance shaping my thinking now, in the present.

I can't speak for everyone else, but when the going gets tough, I find contentment in knowing that, as long as I don't sit around wasting my time (yunno, praying) and actually take steps to improve my situation, it is likely to do just that. I rely on good friends and the love of my family. You truss your worldview up in frivolous nonsense like some spiritual Honey Boo Boo, but if you take that away, you're probably not any different from us.

Why feel the need to attack that?

It's a lie, and you use it to make yourself feel superior to us.

[Esquilax]

Religion is based on the human moral instinct. You have no reason to view the world as a 'just' place, and your morality must reflect that. otherwise you have some serous cognitive dissonance going on.

You bet it does. Just in the opposite way than what you're thinking.

I get what you're trying to do, you're trying to make us feel like the religious folks have some extra thing going on that we atheists can't have, some light of the soul bullshit, but let me tell you, it's far, far more valuable to a world that is unjust to have people like me in it, who don't labor under any illusions of cosmic, posthumous justice.

The world is unjust and there's two things you can do about that: you can cloak yourself in a safety blanket like religion and lie to yourself and those that believe like you that the world you inhabit is ultimately a place that will be kind to you. That's one option. The other is that you accept that the world is unjust on the face of it, but you can always remember that it's up to you to change that.

Yes, there's no natural justice meted out by the cosmos, no grand arbiter to reward those that do good and punish those who do evil, but that doesn't make my life any more hopeless. Because change, and accountability, and true justice, justice that matters, lies in the palm of our collective hands, and it's up to each of us to pull toward it. The world is an unjust place if you let it be. Isn't it more noble to realize that and struggle to make it a better place without the expectation of an ultimate reward for doing so? Isn't it better to fight because the world we have now matters, and the people within it are worth fighting for, even if the best you can do is fractional, almost imperceptible?

Is my life really that much worse off because I'm living it to see my fiancee smile, rather than to be reunited with her in eternity?

It's the people who make the second choice and look reality in the eye who make things happen. People who accept the world as it is can change it. People who make the first choice tend to be the ones who pray their children's illnesses away until they die, or who bluster righteously about gay marriage and such.

Huh, that whole thing sort of got away from me a bit, and I don't want to seem didactic, but you did say so yourself: atheists aren't necessarily more immoral for their worldview, nor are theists happier or more moral for theirs. So where do you get this idea that there's any difference at all, at a root level? And how do you support that? I'd be interested to know.

[fr0d0]

You guys are making my point for me. So thank you for that.

So where do you get this idea that there's any difference at all, at a root level? And how do you support that? I'd be interested to know.

Have you not been paying attention? I've just explained that in quite a few ways now. It's a rationally deduced position, that you are accepting the basis of. You cannot experience it without belief in God. But you can appreciate the logic which you are clearly doing already.

---

Yeah my list looks a lot like this:

Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, Pride

I have all of them

It just depends what mood I'm in which ones you get.

I concur

[Esquilax]

Have you not been paying attention? I've just explained that in quite a few ways now. It's a rationally deduced position, that you are accepting the basis of. You cannot experience it without belief in God. But you can appreciate the logic which you are clearly doing already.

I get that you think that, I just don't get why if being religious alone isn't sufficient to induce that state, nor is being atheist enough to preclude it.

Have you ever been a nonbeliever, in order to judge this? (apologies if you've already mentioned, I'm just not going forum wading for that) Do you have any evidence of deconverted christians losing it? And if I can appreciate the logic, how is that functionally different from partaking in it?

It honestly feels like I'm missing something here, but for the life of me I can't put my finger on what.

[fr0d0]

I grew up without religion. My parents weren't interested in religion at all really. My mum reasoned against God. I objected when they sent me to Sunday school so they stopped sending me.
I was introduced to it in my mid 20s. That lasted a few years then I deconverted. A few years back I reconverted. I've been atheist for the vast majority if my life.

As a non Christian you lose it. You cannot rationalise a just reality made possible with God without God.

Belief makes it possible, but in the end we're all human and subject to the same forces.

So while someone who believes and has access to a better reality, they always have the choice to reject it. I reject it all the time.

If you don't believe, you never have access to that world view.

[Celi]

It honestly feels like I'm missing something here, but for the life of me I can't put my finger on what.

I've felt like that for the several days/pages I've spent in this thread arguing with this guy, but the more he talks, the more I think his utter conviction and constant consternation at how we don't get it just make it seem that way, when really what he's saying just doesn't make sense.

I grew up without religion. My parents weren't interested in religion at all really. My mum reasoned against God. I objected when they sent me to Sunday school so they stopped sending me.
I was introduced to it in my mid 20s. That lasted a few years then I deconverted. A few years back I reconverted. I've been atheist for the vast majority if my life.

As a non Christian you lose it. You cannot rationalise a just reality made possible with God without God.

Belief makes it possible, but in the end we're all human and subject to the same forces.

So while someone who believes and has access to a better reality, they always have the choice to reject it. I reject it all the time.

If you don't believe, you never have access to that world view.

No, I can't 'access' your worldview. I don't want to, either, because it makes zero sense and there would be no benefits even if I could force myself to believe it. Maybe with you, what you're saying is true. Maybe you were miserable and never cared about being decent to other people until you became religious. Religion can do that sometimes. But most people can be decent and happy without your beliefs, and it's astoundingly arrogant of you to pity us or assume moral superiority over us just because you have to delude yourself to find happiness.

[Nine]

If you don't believe, you never have access to that world view.

How did you gain access to the worldview considering you were an atheist?