Math has a liberal bias

[BGChuckLee]

I do not consider myself right wing, as I am against taxation of all sorts- both poor and rich should not be assisted by fruits of state violence, their shouldn't be violence to begin with. Preferably I would not want to see government agents of any sort, be it police, firemen, military, etc. These things should be privatised, and not funded by violence. But I would be extremely happy as is, if we had only front line services, rather than welfare states of poor and rich. So I would be satisfied with a minarchist society. I am not against government for being government, I am against violence of all sorts- the Government just happens to have a monopoly on violence- Wheras Somalia's violence is monopolised by gangs/militias- neither of which is any sort of ideal for me.

That's part of the problem, Chuckie. Eliminate the government and there's a power vacuum and it usually gets filled by the most undesirable sorts out there. Going without government sounds nice, but I don't think it's realistic; at least not on a macro scale. On a small scale, you can have small communities without any official laws, but the larger your community gets, the more difficult that is to pull off. Have you ever read Common Sense by Thomas Paine? He goes into a lot of this, right here. The big difference is that Thomas Paine wrote that phamplet over 200 years ago and the world has gotten even more globalized since then. It's getting more and more difficult to be a small, isolated community.

And the truth to the government is dependant on taxation. That was something else that should have been learned from the failure of the articles of confederation. If we have government, we need mandatory taxation.

Well, I know this isn't a macro example, but Ebay is a good example. To make a transaction between someone you have never met across the world requires an enormous amount of trust. Ebay is perhaps the most successful eCommerce website in the world, it is not dependent on Government intervention to regulate the markets from scheemers, scammers and thugs. It is dependent upon a user based reputation system or DRO model. It's extremely low cost, and it works.

I think there is capability of a successful economy not required on Government. The DRO model is the best alternative, which, long story short- is the eBay reputation system modified to the neccesary technology.

[TaraJo]

You realize that ebay takes a portion of any money you get from anything you sell, right? That funds their site which supports their rep system and in your metaphor, it's a lot like a tax. And that's just a measly online auction site, so imagine how much more funding would be needed for managing day to day life?

If you want to compare an anarchistic/libertarian system of government to a website, the closest I can think of would be craigslist. They don't charge anything for most adds, but they opperate totally differntly from ebay or amazon or most other websites.

[BGChuckLee]

You realize that ebay takes a portion of any money you get from anything you sell, right? That funds their site which supports their rep system and in your metaphor, it's a lot like a tax. And that's just a measly online auction site, so imagine how much more funding would be needed for managing day to day life?

If you want to compare an anarchistic/libertarian system of government to a website, the closest I can think of would be craigslist. They don't charge anything for most adds, but they opperate totally differntly from ebay or amazon or most other websites.

No, it's not a tax- since people voluntarily choose to do business with eBay. Whereas I am taxed based on the spending of strangers because I was born in a certain geographical location which I had no control or say in. Big difference.

I've been a seller on eBay & Amazon, you get a lot for what you pay for (voluntarily). Whereas the government has programs there not only dysfunctional but evil.





£5 Billion and results worse than random- if this happened in the private sector, not only would everyone involved be sued & fired, but they wouldn't have authority to begin with. Everything the government touches turns to shit, everything the free market touches turns into something leaner and meaner. Electronics companies for example, it's fair to say- we have all benefited from their product development. Whereas there hasn't been a single historical example of a government not failing; going into war/debt.

[Autumnlicious]

You're taxed to provide a variety of services, some that you need for free or at very low subsidized rates.

Consequentially, the services you don't use or are not applicable are funded by your taxes to provide said services for free or at very low subsidized rates to others.

As you can see, there is a give and take here.

You don't live in a vacuum in society and the taxes you contribute are used in large pools to secure long term contracts are less than market value costs.

Finally, the services you depend on for free or reduced rates are the results of others in more prosperous states funding yours (assuming you're in a state that receives more than a dollar per every federal tax dollar collected).

Let me rattle some keys if the above is too hard to parse.

[BGChuckLee]

You're taxed to provide a variety of services, some that you need for free or at very low subsidized rates.

Consequentially, the services you don't use or are not applicable are funded by your taxes to provide said services for free or at very low subsidized rates to others.

As you can see, there is a give and take here.

You don't live in a vacuum in society and the taxes you contribute are used in large pools to secure long term contracts are less than market value costs.

Finally, the services you depend on for free or reduced rates are the results of others in more prosperous states funding yours (assuming you're in a state that receives more than a dollar per every federal tax dollar collected).

Let me rattle some keys if the above is too hard to parse.

If a percentage of my income is taken by tax, how is anything I receive back from the taxer 'free'?

So if I take 30% of your income by force, and give you back some of it, you would consider that free stuff?

[TaraJo]

If a percentage of my income is taken by tax, how is anything I receive back from the taxer 'free'?

So if I take 30% of your income by force, and give you back some of it, you would consider that free stuff?

If the return is greater than the 30% I gave up, I'd consider it a net gain.

For most people, a good education is worth more than 30% of their income. In your case, though, you're probably the only person I know that deserves a refund.

[popeyespappy]

For most people, a good education is worth more than 30% of their income. In your case, though, you're probably the only person I know that deserves a refund.

I didn't realize you knew so few people Tara.

[BGChuckLee]

If a percentage of my income is taken by tax, how is anything I receive back from the taxer 'free'?

So if I take 30% of your income by force, and give you back some of it, you would consider that free stuff?

If the return is greater than the 30% I gave up, I'd consider it a net gain.

For most people, a good education is worth more than 30% of their income. In your case, though, you're probably the only person I know that deserves a refund.

Well, most of tax payers money goes to paying off debt- so no, you get nowhere near 100% back. And even so- let's say someone stole my bike, I would want my bike back, and compensation for the trouble caused.

Oh yeah, those college degrees are so worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXpwAOHJsxg

[Autumnlicious]

If a percentage of my income is taken by tax, how is anything I receive back from the taxer 'free'?

So if I take 30% of your income by force, and give you back some of it, you would consider that free stuff?

If the return is greater than the 30% I gave up, I'd consider it a net gain.

For most people, a good education is worth more than 30% of their income. In your case, though, you're probably the only person I know that deserves a refund.

Someone who brackets the act of taxation as "taking it by force" will probably not understand how the bidding process for provisioning of public services would go, nor would they understand the service equivalent of buying in bulk.

I wouldn't continue trying to make him understand Tara. He's too thick for that.

[BGChuckLee]

If the return is greater than the 30% I gave up, I'd consider it a net gain.

For most people, a good education is worth more than 30% of their income. In your case, though, you're probably the only person I know that deserves a refund.

Someone who brackets the act of taxation as "taking it by force" will probably not understand how the bidding process for provisioning of public services would go, nor would they understand the service equivalent of buying in bulk.

Yep.