Colorado parents of transgender 1st-grader file complaint over restroom ban

[Minimalist]

The only people who should be concerned about the sexuality of a six year old are catholic priests.

[Shell B]

Wait a minute, tegh. Since when are all transgender women attracted to men?

I'm not worried about a threat to me. I fucking dare someone to try. It's other people I worry about. All the time, actually.

[TaraJo]

Tara, the only time I ever see bathroom issues come up in the news, it is because someone was raped or assaulted in one. If we make it so it is not suspicious for a man to follow a woman into a public restroom, it could result in problems. Sure, it might not, but I might be biased. A girl was murdered in a restroom at a rest stop near here. The same goes for women following boys into the bathroom. I am not okay with grown women using the bathroom with my nephews. There are a real reasons why they are separate. Ignore them if you want, but they are real. Also, I like being able to go to the bathroom without any men in there. Is that such a crime?

Much of that is true. I think the majority of the rapes that happen in bathrooms are men raping women, so I can go with that. Assault, though, I haven't really seen any stats or numbers or anything that has said that those are more likely to happen in bathrooms, especially that they're going to be a man assaulting a woman in the bathroom. I've seen a LOT of stories about one woman assaulting another in the bathroom and about one man assauling another in the bathroom. I even know there was a trans woman who was assaulted when she was trying to use a restroom in a Baltimore McDonalds a while back.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-09...nder-woman

But, again, from my perspective, being able to use the women's room can be VERY important. I mean, I seem to pass well enough that I can go about my life without too much harassment or anything. A large part of that is that I don't think the haters know I'm trans. If I go use the men's room, I'm pretty much announcing to everyone that I'm trans. That puts me in extreme danger. And for a lot of us, restrooms are about the only gendered resource we use, so if we could find a way around that, it would be a huge help to us.

I also think the pre-op designation is problematic. I know a few trans women who have chosen not to have genital surgery. Does this mean they should permenantly be using the men's room? Worse yet, there aren't very good options for trans men getting genital surgery. If we're determing how someone should be gendered based on their genital configuration, just about ever trans man I have ever met would be considered a woman. And that's where things get REALLY strange; I mean, going by that logic, it would be more acceptable for Buck Angel here to use the women's room than it would be for me to.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

Wait a minute, tegh. Since when are all transgender women attracted to men?

I'm not worried about a threat to me. I fucking dare someone to try. It's other people I worry about. All the time, actually.

Not all obviously but I'd guess it'd be a majority.

But even with let's say lesbian transgendered or bisexual transgendered women, with all the hormone therapy can they even still use their penises sexually? And if they could, would they want to? Because I thought they would rather have vaginas.


And would they be any more threatening than natural women lesbians? A lesbian could rape too with a strap on, or even without one for that matter.

[Shell B]

This is the argument from incredulity fallacy. Can you articulate exactly what you find wrong with her undergoing hormone therapy?

Ugh. I'm getting so tired of teaching logic in this forum. I understand basic fucking logic and still I see so many misuses. There actually has to incredulity for it to be an argument from incredulity.

Let's pretend that her having hormone therapy is p. Things that are not good are q. For this to be an argument from incredulity, it would have to go something like:

1. She is getting p

2. I cannot imagine p being ~q

Therefore, p is q

or

1. She is getting p

2. No one can explain why p is ~q

Therefore, p is q

or

1. She is getting p

2. No one can imagine p being ~q

Therefore, p is q

Since I did not construct an argument at all, but rather only gave my conclusion, you cannot have any of the above or any imagined arguments from incredulity you may have mustered. It would be fucking stupendous if people in this forum would stop trying to gain the upper hand by pulling fucking logic out of their asses hoping that the audience is ignorant.

Now, moving on, pumping hormones into children is bad form for several reasons. Instead of spoon feeding them to you, I'll just give you a general idea via an expert. Given that you have a history of being contrary for the sake of being contrary, I won't put much of my own effort in, unless you state your opinion from the get-go and make an honest debate out of it.

Estrogen may cause growth to slow or stop early in children who take large doses for a long time. Estrogen may also affect the timing and speed of sexual development in children.

And a slew of other side effects http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/drugi...de-effects

So, pretty much fuck any parent who thinks gender identity in a prepubescent child is important enough to risk the health of a six-year-old.

[Mystical]

Yeah, there's not really any way to monitor bathroom usage based on personal sexual preference. I know this though, and go to the bathroom at my own risk. Not once has anyone hit on me in the bathroom so I think we're safe Maybe that's why it's down to anatomy as the determining factor for those making the laws. For all the reasons TaraJo just mentioned, I feel that the one room uni bathroom for those who can't go in either, is a necessity if we're to be civilized about it.

[Shell B]

Not all obviously but I'd guess it'd be a majority.

Guesses aren't going to swang it.

But even with let's say lesbian transgendered or bisexual transgendered women, with all the hormone therapy can they even still use their penises sexually?

Yes.

And if they could, would they want to? Because I thought they would rather have vaginas.

Hardly matters. They have penises. Penises do not belong in ladies rooms. You can see slightly through the cracks in doors. It's not all about rape or assault, nor have I even slightly made it such.

And would they be any more threatening than natural women lesbians? A lesbian could rape too with a strap on, or even without one for that matter.

Again, we're not just talking about rape. However, if we were, I would take a lesser risk than the obvious greater risk. Not to mention the fact that, when I talked about rape, I was not talking about transgender individuals raping people. I was talking about unisex bathrooms making it not suspicious for men to follow women into bathrooms and vice versa. Are you purposely moving the goalposts?

---

I completely agree that one room uni bathrooms are just fine. I have absolutely no qualms about it.

ETA: Now, I do not mind if transgender individuals use the bathroom so much that I would put up a stink about civilized individuals doing it without making it obvious or making some point about it. There is no harm if no one notices. There is harm if your dick is swinging while you are peeing or you are peeing with your ass to the door, which I previously mentioned a child might easily see through unwittingly.

[TaraJo]

Wait a minute, tegh. Since when are all transgender women attracted to men?

I'm not worried about a threat to me. I fucking dare someone to try. It's other people I worry about. All the time, actually.

Not all obviously but I'd guess it'd be a majority.

You'd be surprised. I know a quite a few trans women who are lesbian, and only a few who are strictly straight. The great majority of us fall somewhere into the bisexual label. Educated guess, I think our pesonal experiences causes us to view gender differently and see it as more fluid.

But even with let's say lesbian transgendered or bisexual transgendered women, with all the hormone therapy can they even still use their penises sexually? And if they could, would they want to? Because I thought they would rather have vaginas.

Also a valid point. A penis needs testosterone to really work well. Erections don't get as hard, they take longer to get and the penis gets smaller overall. Plus, hormone treatment tends to greatly reduce our sex drive. And about six or so months on hormones leaves us sterile. And, yeah, I've known a lot of girls who refuse to use their penis in any way, shape or form; I even knew one who felt so tainted and dirty when she used it with her girlfriend that sometimes she would cut herself over it.

So, pretty much fuck any parent who thinks gender identity in a prepubescent child is important enough to risk the health of a six-year-old.

I don't think a six year old should start on hormones; that's way too young. But I don't think a girl who identifies and lives as a girl should be forced into male puberty. Honestly, if it's up to me, I say try to let the child live as normal a life as she can. I know, being trans she's going to have difficulties and struggles and everything, but why should we give her anymore of that than she's already going to have?

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

This is the argument from incredulity fallacy. Can you articulate exactly what you find wrong with her undergoing hormone therapy?

Ugh. I'm getting so tired of teaching logic in this forum. I understand basic fucking logic and still I see so many misuses. There actually has to incredulity for it to be an argument from incredulity.

Let's pretend that her having hormone therapy is p. Things that are not good are q. For this to be an argument from incredulity, it would have to go something like:

1. She is getting p

2. I cannot imagine p being ~q

Therefore, p is q

or

1. She is getting p

2. No one can explain why p is ~q

Therefore, p is q

or

1. She is getting p

2. No one can imagine p being ~q

Therefore, p is q

Since I did not construct an argument at all, but rather only gave my conclusion, you cannot have any of the above or any imagined arguments from incredulity you may have mustered. It would be fucking stupendous if people in this forum would stop trying to gain the upper hand by pulling fucking logic out of their asses hoping that the audience is ignorant.

Construct an argument next time then rather than leaving us to infer.

Now, moving on, pumping hormones into children is bad form for several reasons. Instead of spoon feeding them to you, I'll just give you a general idea via an expert. Given that you have a history of being contrary for the sake of being contrary, I won't put much of my own effort in, unless you state your opinion from the get-go and make an honest debate out of it.

Estrogen may cause growth to slow or stop early in children who take large doses for a long time. Estrogen may also affect the timing and speed of sexual development in children.

And a slew of other side effects http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/drugi...de-effects

So, pretty much fuck any parent who thinks gender identity in a prepubescent child is important enough to risk the health of a six-year-old.

This is more like it. I'm not going to argue with you on that.

---

And if they could, would they want to? Because I thought they would rather have vaginas.

Hardly matters. They have penises. Penises do not belong in ladies rooms. You can see slightly through the cracks in doors. It's not all about rape or assault, nor have I even slightly made it such.

If it's not about rape or assault, then what's the problem with penises? Is this just some irrational fear of yours of penises in the ladies room?

And would they be any more threatening than natural women lesbians? A lesbian could rape too with a strap on, or even without one for that matter.

Again, we're not just talking about rape. However, if we were, I would take a lesser risk than the obvious greater risk. Not to mention the fact that, when I talked about rape, I was not talking about transgender individuals raping people. I was talking about unisex bathrooms making it not suspicious for men to follow women into bathrooms and vice versa. Are you purposely moving the goalposts?

No, I just can't see any possible reason why somebody would fear penises in the women's restroom if it wasn't for fear of rape or assault. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me at all.

ETA: Now, I do not mind if transgender individuals use the bathroom so much that I would put up a stink about civilized individuals doing it without making it obvious or making some point about it. There is no harm if no one notices. There is harm if your dick is swinging while you are peeing or you are peeing with your ass to the door, which I previously mentioned a child might easily see through unwittingly.

What "harm" is this exactly?

[Aractus]

Ok, yeah, the story is kinda personal for me. Why wouldn't it be? I wish I could have transitioned when I was 6.

But, really, what is the problem with her using the women's room? I mean, I'm willing to bet had nobody brought this up, she would have been able to live her life like a normal, average little girl. Now she got thrown into the middle of a media shitstorm, effectively outing her to the entire school. She may have had lots of friends before, but there's a good chance that a lot of her friends' parents won't let them play with her anymore (or they're going to tell their kids how evil and sinful she is). This may have done some serious damage to her childhood.

And, no, I don't think she's confused. My standing rule is, if someone personally identifies as a girl, I treat them like a girl. I know some people think she's bit young, but at what age do we decide she's not too young to determine her gender? At 10? Or 12? Or 16 or 18? The longer you wait, the more difficult transition is, especially after puberty sets in and you start having to deal with hormones you don't want. If she's allowed to transition now, she may be able to avoid growing facial hair (saving her time, money and pain from electrolysis), more masculine build (making clothes shopping more difficult) and a deepening voice. I don't want to be the one who tells a young lady that she has to undergo boy-puberty before I'll consider her a girl; do you?

Wow Tara, you have completely missed what I think the most important point is - and I brought it up yet no one has discussed it. This is a matter for the school, and it's their right to make a decision, in this case they cannot make everyone happy, but they still have to make a decision and parents should respect the rules that the School has. In fact - when you send your child to a school, you are agreeing to abide by their rules.

Schools have enough things to worry about without having renegade parents who are unhappy with the school rules that they agreed to when they sent their children there.