(March 2, 2013 at 3:39 pm)EGross Wrote: Gee, I thought I had made my response clear that I knew it was not from you and was answering and answer. Sorry about the douching.

Big hugs all away around!

I was talking to JohnV. I'm just lazy about editing the quote system. You seem cool.

(March 2, 2013 at 3:00 pm)EGross Wrote: Because he is a boy.

If we changed the argument from gender to race, it should appear just as ludicrous. If someone lies about his physical appearance and claims he is Jesus, we would be all over him. Buf if someone lies about his appearence and says he is a gender that he isn't, that is the new normal?

Just because his parents are living on the planet "woo-woo" doesn't meant that the rest of the world has to go with it.

He wants to wear a dress and play with dolls? That's ok. He's a cross-dressing boy who likes dolls.

Well that's not really hr issue when it comes to transgender people. It's to do with their feelings as to what gender their personality is, and the body is therefore incorrectly applied from their opinion.
I fail to see why this causes problems for other people. It's an internal problem.

Unisex bathrooms for the school issue isn't going to take away the issue completely, yes ShellB. When they're adults they'll have to do what they do now because it's not plausible to demand unisex bathrooms for all accommodations. Truth of the matter is, they go into the bathroom they identify with in the end anyways, don't they? I see the implications of where this would be going--require unisex bathrooms by law. Or god forbid make it illegal for them to use the bathroom of their choice.
But I don't see the public restroom issue as being the same as the school restroom issue. I believe that since they are kids we do have a responsibility to protect them from all iniquities, and making a girl go into a boy bathroom is wrong and likewise. Not to mention making girls go to the bathroom with a boy and likewise. It's different at school than it is when you're in public--no one knows your true gender. If they identify as a girl (she damn near fooled me!) and cannot go to the girls bathroom then it's not too much to require a unisex bathroom in schools. I think it is preferable than giving her special instructions for going to the bathroom and making her feel picked out by having to go to the nurses office or dealing with adults looking at you in the office just because you gotta go to the restroom. One should be able to feel normal when going the bathroom is my point. She has rights too, how would you feel if you couldn't use either of the bathrooms and had to go to the office to get a key for the teacher's bathroom? And I hate to say it, but she might not be 'confused' about her sexual identity at all. Maybe it's us who are confused!

This story kinda blew up all over my facebook a few days ago. Can't say I'm too surprised; I have a lot of transsexuals in my social contacts. I'm gonna put a link with the story and a video about it that was just so stupid I didn't know whether I wanted to laugh or cry.

http://mm4a.org/ZLQAKJ

Basically, someone was saying, among other things, that little boys walk around the boys room with their pants down. Ok, I used men's rooms for almost 30 years and I have NEVER seen that done by anyone. I might have done something like that a few times because the toilet paper was out of reach, but I only did it at home and only over short distances with the door locked. That person is nucking futs.

Ok, yeah, the story is kinda personal for me. Why wouldn't it be? I wish I could have transitioned when I was 6.

But, really, what is the problem with her using the women's room? I mean, I'm willing to bet had nobody brought this up, she would have been able to live her life like a normal, average little girl. Now she got thrown into the middle of a media shitstorm, effectively outing her to the entire school. She may have had lots of friends before, but there's a good chance that a lot of her friends' parents won't let them play with her anymore (or they're going to tell their kids how evil and sinful she is). This may have done some serious damage to her childhood.

And, no, I don't think she's confused. My standing rule is, if someone personally identifies as a girl, I treat them like a girl. I know some people think she's bit young, but at what age do we decide she's not too young to determine her gender? At 10? Or 12? Or 16 or 18? The longer you wait, the more difficult transition is, especially after puberty sets in and you start having to deal with hormones you don't want. If she's allowed to transition now, she may be able to avoid growing facial hair (saving her time, money and pain from electrolysis), more masculine build (making clothes shopping more difficult) and a deepening voice. I don't want to be the one who tells a young lady that she has to undergo boy-puberty before I'll consider her a girl; do you?

I didn't say definitely confused. If you look at my post more carefully, I allowed for either scenario. The bottom line is that bathrooms are based on our genitals. They are not based on gender. If you have a penis, you go to the penis room and vice versa. I do not see it harming the child. Besides, you are arguing for unisex bathrooms in the same breath as arguing against making a girl go with the boys. It's asinine. She does have rights. So do the girls who have vaginas whose bathroom this little girl with a penis would be using. Penis goes to penis room. That is the very reason for the divide.

Besides, this child is six fucking years old. Coddle her now and pretend that she is run-of-the-mill and she is going to have a hell of a shock ahead. Better get her used to the fact that she is has a very important part that biological girls do not.

I was asked earlier if I would feel uncomfortable going to the bathroom with TaraJo or Lilly present. My answer to that is I know Lilly and she is my friend. Of course I would not feel uncomfortable. I piss around guy friends and girl friends. I do not know TaraJo personally. Yes, I might feel slightly uncomfortable knowing there was a secret penis in the restroom. It is nothing against being transgender. It is about having a penis. Assuming I know nothing about this person, I do not want a grown biological male in the same bathroom as my niece. I do not want a grown biological woman in the same bathroom as my nephew either. If this is really that big of a fucking deal, why not make a pre-op trans bathroom and say fuck it? You can't pretend she is biologically female.

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You honestly think that giving hormone therapy to a six-year-old who likely cannot even ride a bike without training wheels yet is okay, Tara? She can wear whatever she wants. If her parents opt for any medical treatment, I would want the child taken away from them.

Well, yeah, that would be asinine I see that. In my minds eye I was speaking about a one bathroom unit that either sex can go into, just like at the movie theatre. My bad

In all realities, this issue wouldn't come up if it weren't for the fact that we are all identified by our gender in school. In public, you've probably gone to the restroom with males and not known it. If not you, then someone has. I don't see it as being a problem in the ladies room so much because there are stalls. In the men's room, not so much. How would a guy feel standing next to for all intensive purposes a 'lady' to take a piss? I bet it isn't good. In places where I've worked, the men's bathrooms are quite lax on their need for doors, even for the stalls. I would feel weird going in there, wouldn't you? I would feel weird seeing men's penises on a daily basis too. Since schools require gender identification, it's only right that they accommodate all genders including transgender. Irregardless if their transgender is just a 'phase'.

Quote:My standing rule is, if someone personally identifies as a girl, I treat them like a girl.

Exactly.

Quote:I know some people think she's bit young, but at what age do we decide she's not too young to determine her gender? At 10? Or 12? Or 16 or 18?

I don't think there is an age limit for self determination, but there should be rules on making permanent adjustments to one's body, especially for kids who are still developing. And most especially when it comes to medication.

(March 2, 2013 at 10:54 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: Well, yeah, that would be asinine I see that. In my minds eye I was speaking about a one bathroom unit that either sex can go into, just like at the movie theatre. My bad

Actually, it would be extremely helpful to have those.

I have a friend who was born with both male and female genitals and pretty much lives between the genders. When he was in school, the principal refused to let him use the majority of the restrooms in the school because they weren't sure whether he should use the men's room or the women's room. Instead, they told him he could go to the teacher's lounge and use the restroom there since it was the only one on the campus that was gener neutral. The only problem was that the teachers lounge was at one end of the school, far away from where his classes were and it was a pain to have to walk all the way down there when he had to go (made it really easy to be late to class). I can't help but think it would have been incredibly helpful to him if we did away with the gendered toilets; I honestly can't see any real good reasons to have them, anyway.

Yes, having single bathrooms is a good solution. A great solution, really.

Tara, the only time I ever see bathroom issues come up in the news, it is because someone was raped or assaulted in one. If we make it so it is not suspicious for a man to follow a woman into a public restroom, it could result in problems. Sure, it might not, but I might be biased. A girl was murdered in a restroom at a rest stop near here. The same goes for women following boys into the bathroom. I am not okay with grown women using the bathroom with my nephews. There are a real reasons why they are separate. Ignore them if you want, but they are real. Also, I like being able to go to the bathroom without any men in there. Is that such a crime?

(March 2, 2013 at 10:48 pm)Shell B Wrote: I didn't say definitely confused. If you look at my post more carefully, I allowed for either scenario. The bottom line is that bathrooms are based on our genitals. They are not based on gender. If you have a penis, you go to the penis room and vice versa. I do not see it harming the child. Besides, you are arguing for unisex bathrooms in the same breath as arguing against making a girl go with the boys. It's asinine. She does have rights. So do the girls who have vaginas whose bathroom this little girl with a penis would be using. Penis goes to penis room. That is the very reason for the divide.

You're committing the appeal to definition fallacy. Can you give any reason why we should define who goes to what restroom on the sole basis of genitalia?

Quote:Besides, this child is six fucking years old. Coddle her now and pretend that she is run-of-the-mill and she is going to have a hell of a shock ahead. Better get her used to the fact that she is has a very important part that biological girls do not.

What "shock" might that be and what makes you think kid isn't already aware of his/her difference to girls?

If the kid was born with the wrong parts, you'd think it be best to try and correct that as much as you can. Allowing the kid to use the restroom of the gender she should have been born as would I think would serve that correction.

Quote:I was asked earlier if I would feel uncomfortable going to the bathroom with TaraJo or Lilly present. My answer to that is I know Lilly and she is my friend. Of course I would not feel uncomfortable. I piss around guy friends and girl friends. I do not know TaraJo personally. Yes, I might feel slightly uncomfortable knowing there was a secret penis in the restroom. It is nothing against being transgender. It is about having a penis. Assuming I know nothing about this person, I do not want a grown biological male in the same bathroom as my niece. I do not want a grown biological woman in the same bathroom as my nephew either. If this is really that big of a fucking deal, why not make a pre-op trans bathroom and say fuck it? You can't pretend she is biologically female.

But the transgendered woman would be attracted to men so she wouldn't pose a threat to you.

Quote:You honestly think that giving hormone therapy to a six-year-old who likely cannot even ride a bike without training wheels yet is okay, Tara? She can wear whatever she wants. If her parents opt for any medical treatment, I would want the child taken away from them.

This is the argument from incredulity fallacy. Can you articulate exactly what you find wrong with her undergoing hormone therapy?

Oooh, yeah, I'd feel weird going to the club and sharing stalled bathrooms with drunk men I don't think you're biased ShellB, it's a safety thing. That said, if I washed my hands right next to a transgendered individual, I would not mind because their sexual orientation is different from a man's. What's more, we go to the restroom with bisexual women all the time and don't know it
I will admit even how things are now, I do check the bathroom for men before I use the stall for those news broadcast reasons. As things are now, if I see a man I will scream. How could I know what their intentions are if they're allowed to be in there?
Not to mention: guys' bathrooms are on a whole different playing field cleanliness wise.