Science and religion

[jstrodel]

Darkstar, you used the word "demostratably", but you don't ever demostrate your conclusions. Every one of your posts that I have seen has argued from authority. Just admit it, your faith is in science. You use science and logical words, but that is not how you build your belief system. Your knowledge of science comes from reading popular level books, not from doing science.

You relationship between "science" and "religion" uses categories that lump all religions together. Why would you do that? Because you don't have any knowledge of any particular religion. That is a common atheist tactic, to make all religious claims equally probably. But Christian theism has hundreds of years of rigorous peer reviewed publications in many, many languages, and scores of people with very high IQ's that have poured over the coherence of theism. Many theistic claims have been confirmed by modern science.

[Silver]

Is their concept of God probable?

As opposed to all the other improbable concepts of god?

[Joel]

They are all of equal probability, as they all claim to have miracles performed right in front of their eyes.

Again, what makes yours any more true than the others.
A muslim/sikh/hindu/thelemite would tell me the same things you are telling me.

[Darkstar]

Darkstar, you used the word "demostratably", but you don't ever demostrate your conclusions. Every one of your posts that I have seen has argued from authority. Just admit it, your faith is in science. You use science and logical words, but that is not how you build your belief system. Your knowledge of science comes from reading popular level books, not from doing science.

But science works...
And how am I supposed to demonstrate the effectiveness of science over the internet? Wait...the internet...exists.

[Ryantology]

Is their concept of God probable? Did you see the above argument. There are many others you could make. Is it probable that Zues would reveal himself in ancient Greece and then be dormant for the rest of history?

As probable as Jesus revealing himself in ancient Rome and then being dormant for the rest of history, more or less.

[jstrodel]

Darkstar, you used the word "demostratably", but you don't ever demostrate your conclusions. Every one of your posts that I have seen has argued from authority. Just admit it, your faith is in science. You use science and logical words, but that is not how you build your belief system. Your knowledge of science comes from reading popular level books, not from doing science.

But science works...

Works to do what? To build computers? To give you what you want?

What does science have to say about the meaning of life? About love? About how to raise a family? About virtues? About the origin of the universe? About the direction that human civilizations should go.

Not much.

---

They are all of equal probability, as they all claim to have miracles performed right in front of their eyes.

Again, what makes yours any more true than the others.
A muslim/sikh/hindu/thelemite would tell me the same things you are telling me.

I am not necessarily arguing that their miracles are false. There are spiritual forces that exist in other religions. The question is whether the claims of their religion can express a coherent possible description of the origin of the universe. Christian theology definatly can, and has been considered so for 2000 years.

[Joel]

Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

If that's the case, then how is it possible to determine which is true and which is false? (Don't hit me with the "false spirits" BS, please)

[Darkstar]

But science works...

Works to do what? To build computers? To give you what you want?

What does science have to say about the meaning of life? About love? About how to raise a family? About virtues? About the origin of the universe? About the direction that human civilizations should go.

Not much.

It hasn't figured out the origin of the universe yet, and philosophy would apply to the other ones. (Although there could be a scientific explanation of pheromones and such, I assume that isn't what you want)

The meaning of life? Why must there be an inherent meaning? There is no reason to think there must be a reason.

[jstrodel]

Darkstar, you used the word "demostratably", but you don't ever demostrate your conclusions. Every one of your posts that I have seen has argued from authority. Just admit it, your faith is in science. You use science and logical words, but that is not how you build your belief system. Your knowledge of science comes from reading popular level books, not from doing science.

But science works...
And how am I supposed to demonstrate the effectiveness of science over the internet? Wait...the internet...exists.

pragmatic truth claims are obviously very different from correspondent or ethical truth claims.

You made another post where you said that common sense says you should trust in empirical science.

What makes you think this? This is what I used to think when I was about 17 or 18 years old, I used to be an atheist and I had an immense trust in science. I didn't realize the fallibility of science, how quickly it is replaced with new theories, and how limited its sphere it.

Why is it common sense to base everything on empirical science? If you had a relationship with a women, would you consult empirical science for advice? Would you think about statistical methods while you talking to her to discern the right way to act?

What makes you think that empirical science is the best way to understand life?

If the success of science in aiding modern societies is sufficient to attribute the power to grant ultimate knowledge, and ultimate dominion of yourself over to something (as you place ultimate dominion and control of yourself in the hands of science when you trust it), why not use morals based on technology instead? Why not base your morals on wet vac chemical methods?

Say you were going to get married. Why not ask the people that develop chemical formulas for wet vacuum cleaners for advice getting married? Surely wet vacuum cleaners have proved their utility in aiding people to clean floors.

[Mystical]

Even if I live a righteous life in all ways besides bowing to god for forgiveness for a sin I never committed: I'm still going to hell.
And you, for your thoughts alone are going to hell. Unless before you die you pray for forgiveness, right? Don't you pray often so that
doesn't happen?

James 2:10
10- For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

1 John 3:4-5
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

"For the wages of sin is death ..." (Romans 6:23)

Romans
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11

"Unrighteous," immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers "will not inherit the kingdom of God." -1 Corinthians 6:9-10

We are Slaves. We have no choice because we have been bought, and if we don't obey our Master we will be thrown away for eternity.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

Luke 12:47–48 (ESV)
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.

Matthew 5:22 (ESV)
22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.