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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 4:41 pm
If we can chose to be rational, from the Atheistic perspective, the syllogism is as follows necessarily proves we have choice in our beliefs.
We can chose to be rational.
Rationality leads to skepticism (believing only with evidence).
There is no evidence of God(s) an atheist is aware of.
Rationality thus can lead an Atheist to disbelieve in God(s).
We can chose to disbelieve in God(s) (A -> B -> C = A ->C)
We can add.
"It's praiseworthy to chose to be rational".
Therefore, it's praiseworthy for an atheist to disbelief in God if it was from the choice to be rational.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 4:46 pm
(April 4, 2013 at 4:41 pm)Joel Wrote: I fail to see how that is relevant to choosing beliefs.
Help me out here?
One can either choose to believe or to not believe. I honestly do not understand what is so hard to understand about it. With every action or decision that one makes, there is always more than one choice. To state that there is no choice in belief is akin to stating that when walking toward an intersection there is no choice between left and right, that there is only continuing forward.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 4:47 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 4:50 pm by Joel.)
(April 4, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote: (April 4, 2013 at 4:41 pm)Joel Wrote: I fail to see how that is relevant to choosing beliefs.
Help me out here?
One can either choose to believe or to not believe. I honestly do not understand what is so hard to understand about it. With every action or decision that one makes, there is always more than one choice. To state that there is no choice in belief is akin to stating that when walking toward an intersection there is no choice between left and right, that there is only continuing forward.
No. How is choosing a belief the same as choosing an action?
I can choose to raise either my left or right hand; but I can't choose to believe that 2+2 != 5
The example you gave is of someone choosing an action. Not choosing a belief. She choose to look away - that doesn't mean she didn't believe it was happening.
(March 30, 2013 at 9:51 pm)ThatMuslimGuy2 Wrote: Never read anything immoral in the Qur'an.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 4:51 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 4:53 pm by Silver.)
(April 4, 2013 at 4:47 pm)Joel Wrote: No. How is choosing a belief the same as choosing an action?
I can choose to raise either my left or right hand; but I can't choose to believe that 2+2 != 5
One can choose a belief, be it Wicca or Islam, because there is more than one option from which to choose. I am not stating that the choice to believe in the religion is rational, but there is a choice to either believe or not believe. Any time there is more than one option from which to choose, a choice must be made to either believe in one of the multiple religions available or to not believe in any of them. It is that simple.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 4:54 pm
Joel.
Free will, implies we can look away A ->B
B -> C Looking away results in not believing
A ->C We have freedom to not believe.
For example, if I write a book about 30 problems in Quran, a person can chose to ignore it, thus he has choice in his beliefs. 
Also, if you believe we can chose to be rational, then we necessarily chose some of our beliefs.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 4:55 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 4:55 pm by Joel.)
Maybe I find it difficult to grasp because I don't believe we have free will. 
(April 4, 2013 at 4:54 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Joel.
Free will, implies we can look away A ->B
B -> C Looking away results in not believing
A ->C We have freedom to not believe.
For example, if I write a book about 30 problems in Quran, a person can chose to ignore it, thus he has choice in his beliefs.
Also, if you believe we can chose to be rational, then we necessarily chose some of our beliefs. Thank you, that helped.
(March 30, 2013 at 9:51 pm)ThatMuslimGuy2 Wrote: Never read anything immoral in the Qur'an.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 4:58 pm
(April 4, 2013 at 4:55 pm)Joel Wrote: Maybe I find it difficult to grasp because I don't believe we have free will.
From my perspective, free will does not hold any supernatural connotations to its name. Free will, to me, is choosing between chocolate or vanilla ice cream just as much as it is choosing between theism or atheism.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 4:59 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 5:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You just described how we might be able to choose what we exposed ourselves to, but what how that applies to what we believe (except in cases of ignorance) is beyond me.
I could just as easily say that people can't choose to believe what they have no knowledge of. But that wouldn't be very insightful or surprising would it?
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 5:00 pm
(April 4, 2013 at 4:58 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote: (April 4, 2013 at 4:55 pm)Joel Wrote: Maybe I find it difficult to grasp because I don't believe we have free will.
From my perspective, free will does not hold any supernatural connotations to its name. Free will, to me, is choosing between chocolate or vanilla ice cream just as much as it is choosing between theism or atheism.
Nor does it to me.
My disbelief of free will is not dependent on - or related to - supernatural anything.
(March 30, 2013 at 9:51 pm)ThatMuslimGuy2 Wrote: Never read anything immoral in the Qur'an.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 5:04 pm
No problem Joel. I think there is no direct process between non-belief to belief and vice versa. There has to be a connector and various factors. Which is why I was saying, choices are not made in a vacuum. To chose without factors influencing you is impossible.
If we can chose to be sincere to the truth or not care about it, then necessarily, we have some control over what we believe. But I think it's even far more complicated then that with regards to morals.
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