A challenge about women and marriage in Islam

[NoraBrimstone]

Why can't I find a "block the retarded bitch" function on tapatalk? :(

[Violet]

Why can't I find a "block the retarded bitch" function on tapatalk?

Because whenever you find anything what conflicts with your worldview: gotta block that shit

I could help you with blocking people on the normal forum... I haven't done it, but if you go to your user control panel: under miscellaneous (left hand side column) is Buddy/Ignore List. It has a heart by it

You just write the name in. Gently please.

....

I've got two buddies on my list... I wonder the functionality of that.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I've got two buddies on my list... I wonder the functionality of that.

That sounds hot.

[paulpablo]

Age lines are not a logically defendable legalization tool. They are made out of economics

Explain what this sentence means, I know legalization is the removal of a legal prohibition on something, I've never heard of a legalization tool before so I don't know what a logically defendable legalization tool is.

Emotion plays a pretty solid role in formulating or modifying these, even. The lawmakers just 'feel like' the age of majority should be X

Who are the law makers and how do you know what the law makers are feeling?

very few go deeper and ask "Why do I feel this way? What's so special about 10/13/14/16/18/21/30/etc?". Just take a look at this thread as an example... take a look at all of the other nonsense we've had about age over the years

How do you know what the law makers are asking themselves?

What nonsense have we had on this thread? The statistics? The documented videos? The countries where children are dying after becoming pregnant at such a young age and are being abused because they are at a young age?

Which leads to the real point: this isn't about 9 year olds, but instead this: *WHAT ARE THE CHARACTERISTICS OF <A BEING> WHICH ALLOW FOR (in your eyes) THE FUCKING AND/OR MARRYING OF SAID BEING?*

You don't get to dictate what this thread is about, the thread is about the islamic system of marriage, this system allows marriage to a 9 year old, this is what I find disagreeable so I will disagree with it on this thread, you don't get to just say "this isn't about 9 year olds" It is.

Am I invisible? Are my letters as white as the forum snow? Do my words fall upon deaf ears? Did my observation that LGB(t?) people typically have their first sexual experiences earlier than heterosexual people just get ignored again in favor of something I'm not arguing... again?

Gays lesbians and bi sexuals have nothing to do with this thread whatsoever, it is about the islamic system of marriage, unless I've been misinformed by a what seems to be the muslim majority, muslims don't seem to keen on gays or lesbians marrying at all, or having sex at all. Although there are debates on even that topic. If you want to start a different thread on whether or not the age of consent should be lowered specifically for gays lesbians and bi sexuals then that's fine I'll debate you on that thread too.

As for why I wouldn't believe him, we have a few (well, at least one) really good muslims about who have talked about this specific thing before. Most of them do not recognize the young lady married to Mohammed to have been eight (or whatever), but rather at least 13 (or somesuch)... and not necessarily (or even likely, given Mohammed's character) consummated at that time.

You complain about my sources of data yet the reason you don't believe Muslim scholar is incorrect is because one single solitary Muslim told you that muhammad might not have had sex with a 9 year old.

Historical records on anyones character from this far back will be cloudy at best.
You are making absolutely no point whatsoever because I know a lot of muslims do believe that Muhammad married the girl at age 9 and that Muhammad is a perfect role model, that's all that needs to be said.

The only info you are putting forward here is that you spoke to one muslim who told you muhammad was probably a nice man who probably didn't have sex with a 9 year old...so what?

They only appear magnified because of age... had these men you've presented had older wives: they would be suffering a similar level of abuse.

Your asking me if someone I don't know will have still beaten their wife who I don't know, in some sort of magic world where she becomes older than her husband instead of younger. The answer is I don't know.
I would make a guess though that it is easier to beat up a 9 year old, to talk a 9 year old into doing things they don't want to do. Than it would be with a 16 year old for example, this is my opinion of every single person I've ever known ever, that they were less naive at 16 than at 9.

DATA POINTS. MORE OF THEM. COLLECT... or stop bleeding using them

I will stop using them because you have ignored the ones I have given already you don't need to see them again.

"I'll add again that I believe these to be wholly irrelevant to the philosophical concerns of the basic questions. Who gives a shit whether they are 9, 4, 3242, 1, freshly born, or 18: what are the primary factors that make a person 'marriageable' or 'fuckable'?"

I already answered the question on what doesn't make a person fuckable, you try and figure out yourself on what I think would make a person fuckable. And in my opinion the things you say don't matter do matter, sex with someone who is freshly born is out of the question but if you think its ok then that's up to you.

[Violet]

Explain what this sentence means, I know legalization is the removal of a legal prohibition on something, I've never heard of a legalization tool before so I don't know what a logically defendable legalization tool is.

Age as a differential tells us only how old a being is, separating groups of identical beings on a basis of 'how old they are', and not on 'the qualities of <arbitrary>' isn't a logical separation (the beings are capable of the same things). It's the same as creating a 'Race Line' between blacks and whites... same output, yet one is unjustly separated from the other on the basis of an irrelevant difference. What I'm saying: you cannot logically defend doing this, as you're creating a case of special pleading for one of the groups in your separating of it from the other.

I used the 'wrong word' in legalization (though I'd contend it is half-applicable, and that what I meant was perfectly understandable)... 'Legal tool' just sounds weird, there's probably a name for it, but it's not coming to me right now.

As for why it's an economical law: It's simple, and easily enforceable. We all probably agree that an infant should not be voting (though you never know), so there's clearly some point in one's life where they meet our qualifications for voting... now, we could do extensive testing and get our answers nigh-perfectly, but that takes time, it takes money, and it takes accurate psychological and sociological tests to properly illustrate when one possesses a trait in copious-enough levels to meet the arbitrarily-set requirements of <the arbitrary separation>. Way fucking cheaper just to brand them in batches, it's predictable too, which is absolutely great for corporatism.

Just? No. Economical? Absolutely.

Slavery, caste systems, serfdom, and barring 50% of the population from entering the job market (women) is like that too

Who are the law makers and how do you know what the law makers are feeling?

The founders of the nation what come up with the laws there in the first place... and considering all of the other things such people had to think about, I guarantee you it wasn't even on their minds. Even states within America have differing ages of Majority... seriously: have you ever met anyone in your entire life who asked: "why?"

How do I know what the law makers are feeling? My genere is 4X games, my job has been to manage a crew of rebellious teenagers since I was 13. If I didn't think that the nations leaders might be more concerned with a well-oiled machine than with things which have historically been non-issues (women's rights, homosexual's rights, animal's rights), I would have to instead believe that they were horribly freaking incompetent. Or really pressed for time

And I mean, I've only met one other person in my life who gave half a shit about it, but by his reasoning: 'I can get my shit set up behind my parent's backs and achieve most of what I'd like to do with my time'... and in my entire time here (something around 4 years): I've encountered my fair share of people arguing for the special pleading what is age-lines, by <whatever justification>. Of course, you could find such in just about every thread on here... but I've yet to see this issue specifically go any other way.

How do you know what the law makers are asking themselves?

What nonsense have we had on this thread? The statistics? The documented videos? The countries where children are dying after becoming pregnant at such a young age and are being abused because they are at a young age?

I know what the law-makers are *not* asking themselves because of the laws they make, my father's in the local assembly and has been embroiled in politics for basically my entire life, I've had the 'opportunity' to sit in on a few hundred meetings' worth of the Kenai Peninsula Borough's legal operation. That, and I have particular interest in the psychology behind the decisions made therein, paying special attention to the arguments voiced upon a large multitude of the legally-concerned of south-central Alaska. My parents would listen to 'Sound Off' just about every morning; talk-radio where people call up 'the moderator' and voice their opinions and interpretations on 'the topic'... people make laws, and I've been granted unfortunate insight into the process by which they make these Not that ANY of this matters or impacts my arguments in any way under the sun... but you asked, so there it is.

What nonsense: special pleading, (apparently) terrible statistics, videos which do not explain how these abuses are any different from those suffered by women of every age (and often enough, men), countries hit from a symptom of the problems (maybe you'd like to hear about them, or maybe you'll be focused on the symptom as per usual). Oh, there's more nonsense, but I think those are enough to work with for now.

You don't get to dictate what this thread is about, the thread is about the islamic system of marriage, this system allows marriage to a 9 year old, this is what I find disagreeable so I will disagree with it on this thread, you don't get to just say "this isn't about 9 year olds" It is.

And I suppose that you DO get to dictate what this thread is about?

Umm... yes: I do get to say that "this isn't about 9 year olds", since not only is this forum board firmly rooted in it's belief that speech is free: it's even firmly on topic.

Are you ready to tell me what the characteristics of <a being> which allow for the fucking and/or marrying of said being... are? So far it looks like all you've established is that being Islamic and 9 makes one unmarriable and/or unfuckable... how about 8 and Christian?

If I have to do this the hard way of hemming in precisely what is okay with it by guess and check and asking for your beliefs, I'll do it... but just so you know: that takes about 500 times longer than just telling me.

Gays lesbians and bi sexuals have nothing to do with this thread whatsoever, it is about the islamic system of marriage, unless I've been misinformed by a what seems to be the muslim majority, muslims don't seem to keen on gays or lesbians marrying at all, or having sex at all. Although there are debates on even that topic. If you want to start a different thread on whether or not the age of consent should be lowered specifically for gays lesbians and bi sexuals then that's fine I'll debate you on that thread too.

We have a term here for when someone spectacularly misses the point. That term is:

*WOOSH*

Seriously, do I have to mark the references to previously made arguments of *one post ago* to continue and/or elaborate the argument? I refuse: you surely can't be such a child. ADD all over the place here.

You and Germans man... hope neither of you become mods, because you'd split every single thread what has ever been on this forum.

You complain about my sources of data yet the reason you don't believe Muslim scholar is incorrect is because one single solitary Muslim told you that muhammad might not have had sex with a 9 year old.

Historical records on anyones character from this far back will be cloudy at best.
You are making absolutely no point whatsoever because I know a lot of muslims do believe that Muhammad married the girl at age 9 and that Muhammad is a perfect role model, that's all that needs to be said.

The only info you are putting forward here is that you spoke to one muslim who told you muhammad was probably a nice man who probably didn't have sex with a 9 year old...so what?

I complain about your sources of data, and the only reason that I don't believe Muslim scholar is correct is because MASSIVE THEOLOGICAL INVESTIGATION was long ago undertaken on the subject, and the conclusion of this is that Mohammad married someone OF AT LEAST 13[b], and the smart money's on "at least 15". And we don't know when this is consummated either.

Neither the bible nor the quran are a secular historical account, they are a theological historical account, and the metric of 'character' is Mohammad's character in the story, which is not likely to be fucking children on the basis of who he is. It'd be like Voldemort marrying a 10 year old Harry Potter instead of attempting to kill him: totally ((Out Of Character)).

Most Christians believe that Jesus was actually born on Christmas... if you want to go with what some Muslims believe as apposed to what educated theologians have deduced from within the text, go right on ahead. Just be aware of what you're doing when you do it.

I wouldn't have thought that I needed to go overmuch into how after 4 years here I might not have a decent understanding of islam

Your asking me if someone I don't know will have still beaten their wife who I don't know, in some sort of magic world where she becomes older than her husband instead of younger. The answer is I don't know.
I would make a guess though that it is easier to beat up a 9 year old, to talk a 9 year old into doing things they don't want to do. Than it would be with a 16 year old for example, this is my opinion of every single person I've ever known ever, that they were less naive at 16 than at 9.

... *laughs*

Naivety ain't got shit to do with it in the case of arranged marriages, it would only be a factor with the pedophile ice cream man attempting to lure a child he doesn't know in. And that's another subject, wouldn't want you to demand I get back on topic.

Older doesn't necessarily mean 'older than them', and I'd not even considered it even, as it's irrelevant to the point: Persons of any age suffer abuses... and the person abusing them is the person who was capable of abuse in the first place, hence what follows: the age of the person being abused can only *at its most* act as a trigger for an already abusive person.

This is a subject of which I have rather more experience than simply witnessing it being done, age might act as the first hook, but the abuser is not deterred by the increase of the person's age. [b]Would someone still have beaten their wife if they were at a different age: in almost every case, yes.

I will stop using them because you have ignored the ones I have given already you don't need to see them again.

That's a rather ignorant way of looking at this... I take it you're not very good at statistics?

I already answered the question on what doesn't make a person fuckable, you try and figure out yourself on what I think would make a person fuckable. And in my opinion the things you say don't matter do matter, sex with someone who is freshly born is out of the question but if you think its ok then that's up to you.

OOH! THE GUESSING GAME! I'm good at this game.

How about... is it a monkey? YES! I KNEW IT WAS A MONKEY!

...

I could not possibly know, because it's a completely subjective value. My observations of what makes a person fuckable are largely based on their ability to communicate their desires, or utter absence of sapience.

What are the things I say don't matter? Age? How does that matter, if you'd care to illustrate this to me?

Sex with someone who is freshly born isn't out of the question if they can effectively communicate a desire to have sex, in my opinion Cloning's gonna shit on age-laws so hard...

[The Grand Nudger]

Sex with someone who is freshly born isn't out of the question if they can effectively communicate a desire to have sex, in my opinion Cloning's gonna shit on age-laws so hard...

Would make for a great sci-fi short. How long do we have to wait to avail ourselves of a genetically engineered entity - built for the purpose of satisfying a sexual desire from the outset?

[paulpablo]

Age as a differential tells us only how old a being is, separating groups of identical beings on a basis of 'how old they are', and not on 'the qualities of <arbitrary>' isn't a logical separation (the beings are capable of the same things). It's the same as creating a 'Race Line' between blacks and whites... same output, yet one is unjustly separated from the other on the basis of an irrelevant difference. What I'm saying: you cannot logically defend doing this, as you're creating a case of special pleading for one of the groups in your separating of it from the other.

Age separation is nothing like racial separation, clearly there is a relationship between biological and psychological maturity and age.

---

Also what is a

logically defendable legalization tool

How is anything I've mentioned got anything to do with serfdom or barring 50 percent of the population from getting a job?

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We have a term here for when someone spectacularly misses the point. That term is:

*WOOSH*

Make your point then, in what way does gay marriage have to do with the Islamic system of marriage, I've only actually argued against the Islamic system of marriage which allows an adult man to marry a 9 year old female, I haven't even proposed an argument against gay or lesbian sex at age 9 simply because it has nothing to do with the thread.

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Also if you admit that christian beliefs have nothing to do with the reality of what Jesus actually did then how does what Muhammad actually did interfere at all with what the Muslim beliefs are and what the Islamic system is?

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What are the things I say don't matter? Age? How does that matter, if you'd care to illustrate this to me?

Because personally I don't believe a child should have the option of becoming pregnant even if they want to.

I also think that a lot of growing up occurs between the ages of 9 and 16 and a lot of wisdom is accumulated between those ages that's certainly the case for me and the case for everyone I've grown up with. I think 9 year olds are more vulnerable to abuse in general and as you stated people within marriages are vulnerable to abuse anyway, just making the situation worse.

[Violet]

Would make for a great sci-fi short. How long do we have to wait to avail ourselves of a genetically engineered entity - built for the purpose of satisfying a sexual desire from the outset?

Ahhh, Lust Beasts

Who knows how long it'll be... if we never deal with the big questions. But I'd like to think it's soon

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Age separation is nothing like racial separation, clearly there is a relationship between biological and psychological maturity and age.

Nothing like it? Well then, how about separation of sexes over the same basis as 'age separation'? Females get to have their age line drawn before males, and males get to stay out of the age of majority until 25... why, I'm ALL for that. It at least is structured loosely over generalized data, instead of completely made up on the spot

Is there clearly a relationship between "biological and psychological maturity and age"? Why don't I see it, then? Have you met fr0d0 and minimalist?

He never answered me if english was or was not his first language... but now I'm fairly certain it's not. Still, I *think* I know what he's trying to say.

How is anything I've mentioned got anything to do with serfdom or barring 50 percent of the population from getting a job?

... I don't think you can possibly be thick enough as to pluck it out of the middle of its context and seriously question it as if you're the only one capable of bringing things into the argument.

Are you, possibly, a control freak?

Make your point then, in what way does gay marriage have to do with the Islamic system of marriage, I've only actually argued against the Islamic system of marriage which allows an adult man to marry a 9 year old female, I haven't even proposed an argument against gay or lesbian sex at age 9 simply because it has nothing to do with the thread.

Have I *yet* argued for a specifically "Islamic?" system of marriage?

Homosexuals typically have their first sexual experiences earlier in their lives because of how prevalent the likes of sleepovers, girl scouts/boy scouts, single sex dormitories, and their parents being comfortable leaving two boys together or two girls together.

This was a severe omission of data from the study as it was presented to us, the only reason i've written half of what I've written is that you continued to pull this data out *without even looking at it* (for a mind-bogglingly retarded reason, by the way), which was given to you by a poe, and which you stayed true to until you gave it up because 'Lilly's not getting it'. Damn right, dog.

Also if you admit that christian beliefs have nothing to do with the reality of what Jesus actually did then how does what Muhammad actually did interfere at all with what the Muslim beliefs are and what the Islamic system is?

Again, theologians ≠ masses. The latter might use christianity or islam as the justification of their actions, but these actions are those of people, not those of islam or christianity.

Because personally I don't believe a child should have the option of becoming pregnant even if they want to.

Okay... now focus, because I'm going to ask you the same question I've asked you for the last 10 posts:

Why?

It's all well and good that "Oh, I don't like it" or "I don't believe it"... it's quite another to realize *why* this it. Seriously, it's great introspection... you might do well to try it.

I also think that a lot of growing up occurs between the ages of 9 and 16 and a lot of wisdom is accumulated between those ages that's certainly the case for me and the case for everyone I've grown up with. I think 9 year olds are more vulnerable to abuse in general and as you stated people within marriages are vulnerable to abuse anyway, just making the situation worse.

I think that a lot of growing up occurs between the ages of 28 and 35, and a lot of wisdom is accumulated between those ages. That's the case for my parents and it's certainly the case for everyone I've known for 7 years regardless of their age.

I think that just about everyone is vulnerable to abuse in general, and as I stated: people within mariages are exposed to the vulnerabilities that come with trust.

How about this one: WHY are 9 year olds vulnerable? WHAT *specifically* makes them vulnerable?

I said I'd do it... this is me, doing it.

[paulpablo]

Again, theologians ≠ masses. The latter might use christianity or islam as the justification of their actions, but these actions are those of people, not those of islam or christianity.

Islam and Christianity are both religions they have no actions so what you are saying is correct but makes no point.
Islam is a belief and if the majority of Muslims believe that Muhammad married a 9 year old girl and that he is a role model then that is the Islamic system of belief.
I can only argue against what I know the majority of Muslims I've talked to believe in including the poster of this thread. I can't argue against something you discovered recently based on what some theologians said.

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WHY are 9 year olds vulnerable? WHAT *specifically* makes them vulnerable?

Their lack of experience, immaturity, their bodies are smaller and weaker, they are usually more reliant upon their parents at that age or guardian. More likely to die from childbirth if they do get pregnant.

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Okay... now focus, because I'm going to ask you the same question I've asked you for the last 10 posts:

Why?

Because I think 9 year olds should be more focused on their education over having sex and becoming pregnant and raising a child.

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Have I *yet* argued for a specifically "Islamic?" system of marriage?

If you haven't then you're on the wrong thread.

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Is there clearly a relationship between "biological and psychological maturity and age"?

Yes.

Also I still don't know what a "logically defendable legalization tool" is you still haven't explained this to me.

[Violet]

Islam and Christianity are both religions they have no actions so what you are saying is correct but makes no point.

Islam and Christianity are nothing without a mind that knows them, just as the rest of this universe is nothing without a mind what knows it. What I'm saying is that the difference between a casual observer and someone who studies something is significant, and the ones who study the thing are likely better informed about it's true nature (if indeed there is an objective-anything).

One man speaks Islam, a studied observation of Mohammed's revelations and the histories recorded within the Koran... another man speaks themselves, and justifies their behavior by saying it is Islam... oft without a clue or a concern as to what Islam actually might be.

Islam is a belief and if the majority of Muslims believe that Muhammad married a 9 year old girl and that he is a role model then that is the Islamic system of belief.

All of knowledge is belief.

Do a majority of Muslims actually believe that Muhammad married a 9 year old girl, or are you talking out of your ass... again?

And no... this would not be an Islamic system of belief, but the belief of people who call themselves Mussulmen Just like in science, we don't base our scientific understandings off of the majority of people who call themselves scientists, we base it off of the application of the scientific method (Science) by well-studied professors of the scientific method.

Or maybe you do in fact.. do that 0.o

I can only argue against what I know the majority of Muslims I've talked to believe in including the poster of this thread. I can't argue against something you discovered recently based on what some theologians said.

I discovered such... recently?

Maybe you would be better served to educate such Muslims within Islam than to leave them to believe such silly notions, then?

Whether or not you can argue is pointless, really. Whether or not you can learn, on the other hand...

Their lack of experience, immaturity, their bodies are smaller and weaker, they are usually more reliant upon their parents at that age or guardian. More likely to die from childbirth if they do get pregnant.

What does maturity even mean? Certainly, a nine year old has a moderate possibility of being 'less experienced' than a 10 year old, as such has a possibility of being 'more experienced' than an 11 year old... but then: why does experience matter in the first place? What *constitutes* experience? What *constitutes* maturity?

I'll give you that their bodies are typically smaller and weaker than that of a healthy adult, but are they so much smaller and weaker than a 12 year old? How much larger and stronger are they than a 5 year old? Why does smallness impact vulnerability? There are plenty of benefits to being small, which make one less vulnerable in many scenarios... Why do you count smallness among one's vulnerabilities? Is not largeness also a vulnerability?

The last complaint can be complete nullified with contraception, abortion, or abstinence (marriageable, but not fuckable). Or, if the birth is going to happen: C-sections save lives Them being more likely to die of childbirth than an adult is more probably due to the inferior medical facilities in places where nine year olds are more commonly getting pregnant, and we should see this with deaths from births data among adults, yes? Well, we do:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications...3rank.html

Here's a picture of data like it to save you time.



So how does this correspond with child marriage (not just marriage of nine year olds, right?)

http://www.icrw.org/child-marriage-facts-and-figures

1 Niger 75
2 Chad 72
3 Bangladesh 66
4 Guinea 63
5 Central African Republic 61
6 Mali 55
7 Mozambique 52
8 Malawi 50
9 Madagascar 48
10 Sierra Leone 48
11 Burkina Faso 48
12 India 47
13 Eritrea 47
14 Uganda 46
15 Somalia 45
16 Nicaragua 43
17 Zambia 42
18 Ethiopia 41
19 Nepal 41
20 Dominican Republic 40

My, what an interesting correlation. I can't imagine how they came by the statistic that women in their teens are many times more likely to die during childbirth... not only is it naturally more dangerous, but the medical facilities of this list of twenty... well, you've seen the little picture of countries by maternal death above, yes?

Because I think 9 year olds should be more focused on their education over having sex and becoming pregnant and raising a child.

Okay, hold onto your hats... we're getting there:

*Why* do you think 9-year olds should be more focused on education over having sex and becoming pregnant and raising a child?

If you haven't then you're on the wrong thread.

... I mentioned something about control-freakiness, yes?

Not everything's about you, and what you want. If you can't get over that: stop responding to my posts.

Is there clearly a relationship between "biological and psychological maturity and age"?

Yes.

Also I still don't know what a "logically defendable legalization tool" is you still haven't explained this to me.

Okay, so how about you define this clear relationship between "biological and psychological maturity and age" to me? Shouldn't be too hard if it's obvious... right?

Umm, two posts ago:

I used the 'wrong word' in legalization (though I'd contend it is half-applicable, and that what I meant was perfectly understandable)... 'Legal tool' just sounds weird, there's probably a name for it, but it's not coming to me right now.

http://youtu.be/7wVagQ_LVd4?t=2m1s