Pedophilia; I can't accept it.

[Silver]

I have touched on this in another thread, and I figure I will give it another go.

I do believe that pedophilia is wrong. No doubt about it. What I consider pedophilia, however, has nothing to do with a sixteen year old having sex with an adult. Pedophilia is adult men and woman, over the age of eighteen, who sexually molest prepubescent children. Prepubescent children obviously cannot understand sex to the point of giving proper consent to engage in sexual activities.

Post pubescent teenagers, however, mainly those between the age of fifteen and seventeen, are perfectly capable of understanding sex, its ramifications, and being able to consent. I wholeheartedly doubt that post pubescent teenagers are any more likely to be fooled into molestation than an eighteen year old that is considered a legal adult. Many teenagers engage in sex, whether with other teenagers around their own age or with adults the age of eighteen or thirty, and they have absolutely no problems later in life due to the decisions they made to consent to sex.

[max-greece]

Savannahw,

Thanks - but I really don't think Violet is trolling - I think we are talking at cross purposes. I can fully see that a 13 year old could be ready for a sexual relationship and would feel frustrated at being restricted. On the other hand I think that would be an uncommon 13 year old and as I would guess the majority are not....

I wonder what Violet thinks of the minimum age for driving a car? I swear I could have done that at 7...

[Savannahw]

I think that she is looking to argue and getting off topic. I also agree that none of us are going to change our minds.

[Gilgamesh]

I think Max-Greece and Nora made a lot of great points. When I was 13, a 25 year old man was just that a MAN. I was a kid. I didn't want to date a man. I wanted to date the cute boy in my class.

More irrelevant conjecture.

I think Most people would want that for their kids to date someone of there own maturity level.

Probably, although, I'm not seeing why what the parents want is relevant.

There is NOWAY a 13 year old girl is as physically mature as a 25 year old girl.

I agree. No one is arguing otherwise.

Now mental maturity happens at different rates. I considered myself very mature at 13 I had a lot of responsibilities, but now I know just how much I have changes in all the years.

Irrelevant conjecture again.

I do not think that any 13 year old child is ready for a relationship with an adult.

What you think is irrelevant. Why do you think that if something offends you, the object of offence is indebted to you? As in, a relationship between two people that aren't you strikes you the wrong way so you feel it shouldn't happen; why? Why are you trying to take away the rights of others when those rights effect you in no way?

While there might be some 13 year old that are ready to explore their bodies, then they should do so with someone at the same level.

Why?

Not someone who has the mental, physical, and emotional experience of a grown adult.

Implying all grown adults are the same, relative to non-adults. The premise is false.

As we grow up, we get better bull'o'meters and become harder to manipulate. We can tell the difference between healthy attention, someone who wants to love us in a healthy way and someone who doesn't.

More irrelevant conjecture and not necessarily.

As we mature we also see the differences in people of different ages and maturity levels.

Everyone is different, no matter their age. You have yet to show why age is associated with maturity/intelligence. Even if it was, you have also yet to show why two people with varying maturity/intelligence (both of which are subjective, too, so that further pushes the premise away from reason) cannot engage in a healthy relationship.

No a 13 year old girl is not a baby, but she is in no way an adult.

Cool story, bro?

Adults should be able to see the difference in a baby and teen and someone who is a dateable candidate.

Again, why can't a teen be a dating candidate for an adult?

At that age our parents should be there to guide us, when we are unable to tell a dateable person from someone who isn't. It is sad that her's weren't. It is even more sad to think they encouraged it.

It's sad that you think your feelings on the matter should effect everyone, and not just yourself. You don't like teens dating adults? Cool, don't date an adult.

The entirety of your post consist of irrelevant ramblings and repeating the very statement that I am arguing against, as if reciting the statement is an argument for the statement.

---

Max, I totally and completely agree with everything you just said. I was trying to come back from the sock that violet thinks a 13 year old has the same physical maturity as an adult. That is just...blind. I feel like she is just trolling now. I think she is just looking to argue and whatnot instead of actually converse about the subject.

Because if someone has a viewpoint that is not the norm; their trolling. There's no way someone can actually think like that!

Also,

I was trying to come back from the sock that violet thinks a 13 year old has the same physical maturity as an adult.

is an outright stawman.

But hey, who cares about logic. If the oppositions position doesn't resound good feelings within you, it can't be right, and anyone who thinks it is is trolling.

[max-greece]

"You have yet to show why age is associated with maturity/intelligence"

Maturity - the quality of behaving mentally or emotionally like an adult, a very advanced or developed form or state.

Adult is part of the very definition of maturity - your request makes no sense.

Intelligence is not related to age - I don't think that was claimed. Experience, however, is and experience is a tool human beings use a lot to decide how to react or behave under different circumstances. An adult has simply had more opportunity to gain experience. This is not the same as saying that they have gained experience - merely that they have had more chance to do so.

"Probably, although, I'm not seeing why what the parents want is relevant."

Then you are not very well up on the law. A parent of a 13 year old is legally responsible for that child. Depending on the country its usually between 16 and 18 that the individual becomes legally responsible for themselves.

"It's sad that you think your feelings on the matter should effect everyone, and not just yourself."

Well that would depend on your opinion of democracy. If the majority of people feel this way then that is what the law is based upon. If the majority do not feel this way then government will be lobbied and the law will be changed.

[Gilgamesh]

Adults that repeatedly prey on sub-adults for their own sexual gratification are not ones I would wish on any child.

What you wish is irrelevant. Why should your feelings have any bearing on other people?

Also, there's no 'prey' involved if both parties are giving consent, but...

Or, if she can be persuaded to think that she is ready, which is where the whole scope of abuse and potential for it comes in.

She says she gave her consent and she's also enjoying herself; if that is the scenario, there's no abuse.

[max-greece]

"She says she gave her consent and she's also enjoying herself; if that is the scenario, there's no abuse."

Enjoying herself seems pretty critical to this argument then. Suppose she enjoyed the foreplay but not the rest. Suppose she felt pressured into doing more than she wanted.

Suppose she enjoyed it at the time but later regretted it - suppose that happens years later when she realizes (or feels) that she was abused and coerced?

In other words - its a big if...

[Silver]

In other words - its a big if...

It is a big if for adults as well. Even sexually seasoned adults can later regret that they had sex with a particular individual. I do not see us increasing the age of consent to thirty in order to make absolutely certain that people are ready for sex.

If one is going to be honest, after all, one's reproductive organs inform us exactly when we are ready for sex. I believe that teenagers who have already been through puberty are perfectly capable of handling sex and giving consent as well as any adult.

[Gilgamesh]

"You have yet to show why age is associated with maturity/intelligence"

Maturity - the quality of behaving mentally or emotionally like an adult, a very advanced or developed form or state.

Adult is part of the very definition of maturity - your request makes no sense.

"Maturity may refer to:
-Adulthood or age of majority
-Sexual maturity, the stage when an organism can reproduce, though this is distinct from adulthood
-Maturity (psychological), a term in developmental psychology to indicate that a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate manner
Developmental age"

Remember I said maturity was a subjective term, by the way. I wonder why on earth I would've said that?

Intelligence is not related to age - I don't think that was claimed. Experience, however, is and experience is a tool human beings use a lot to decide how to react or behave under different circumstances. An adult has simply had more opportunity to gain experience. This is not the same as saying that they have gained experience - merely that they have had more chance to do so.

I was so ready to pounce but you've done my work for me; being of a higher age doesn't necessarily make you any experienced - it just means you've had more time to potentially acquire more experience.

Although, I had another question, too, remember; why is any of that relevant? As in, why can't someone who's more experienced/mature engage in a healthy relationship of someone who's not as experienced/mature (and again, experience and maturity are subjective, so...)

"Probably, although, I'm not seeing why what the parents want is relevant."

Then you are not very well up on the law. A parent of a 13 year old is legally responsible for that child. Depending on the country its usually between 16 and 18 that the individual becomes legally responsible for themselves.

I don't care about the legalities. They're irrelevant. It's not like what I'm arguing, if accepted as true, would be reason to change those very legalities or anything, either; no, definitely not. What is the fascination with "if it's legal, it's right"? That's not an argument.

"It's sad that you think your feelings on the matter should effect everyone, and not just yourself."

Well that would depend on your opinion of democracy. If the majority of people feel this way then that is what the law is based upon. If the majority do not feel this way then government will be lobbied and the law will be changed.

See my response to the previous quote.

[max-greece]

So puberty is the signpost you want to use?

In that case if the 13 year old girl has not yet gone through puberty we can agree that she is not ready for sex - whatever she says?

Just out of interest how do you feel about an adult supplying a 13 year old girl with Cocaine? The enjoyment aspects are similar.

---

Now we are both replying too fast and our replies are overlapping:

"As in, why can't someone who's more experienced/mature engage in a healthy relationship of someone who's not as experienced/mature "

Here is part of the cross communications. You are talking about healthy relationships and I am talking about the ability to spot unhealthy ones. No-one is perfect at this but experience is a great tool in assisting someone identify risks and dangers. This is the real concern for the 13 year old.

"I don't care about the legalities. They're irrelevant. It's not like what I'm arguing, if accepted as true, would be reason to change those very legalities or anything, either; no, definitely not. What is the fascination with "if it's legal, it's right"? That's not an argument."

And its not my argument. As a parent I am responsible legally. Therefore, what I, as the legally responsible parent wants is not irrelevant. It only becomes irrelevant when I am no longer legally responsible. Oh - and it is worth remembering that the adult who is having a relationship with the child is breaking the law in most western countries and so the law is going to be very relevant. If this is something you wanted to pursue doing so without the law changing would be risky. I am sure you know how "kiddy-fiddlers" are treated in prison.