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(September 30, 2013 at 8:23 am)Esquilax Wrote: But with the divisions and chapter/verse structure that wasn't present in the initial text... and yet somehow you think it's okay to switch between one version and the other, depending what will best suit your position, undoubtedly formed from reading the english text to begin with?
The denotations of BCV are for the purposes of intense study to reference and easily find portions of scripture not to start and stop indivisual context.
I can switch from translation to translation because all the translations I use are translated from the same core texts, not to get a different meaning. I do it to make it easier for you all so read a text in most situations, or if I go to a more detailed one to provide clarity when a given passage is being confused. As the final appeal to authority I will turn to the Greek or Hebrew.
"Scripture" is simply a superstitious word for "script". The bible is a horrible script, poorly written were the real villain(fictional sky daddy) like a dictator or Mafia boss uses threats and bribes to keep you in line. Sets up the game without any consent of the governed, rigs the game, then blames you for the game he set up.
Drich, you worship a CONCEPT, and a very vile concept. There is no real god to worship. But you ARE a victim of mind slavery.
You could be right here since for some reason drich has kudos your post. This will be the second time that we will have kudos a post.
It could be my comprehension skills, but I think you are saying that drich comprehension skills are lacking? If so, do you agree drich with apophenia post?
The other way to take why drich has kudos your post is because it is well written of course but also because if he truly understands it gives him an out. This way he can publically still say a/s/k without looking like a complete liar. For this reason I will highlight the very pacific elements that concern god giving of the holy spirit in luke 11.
5 And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs. 9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread[d] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
I know I have highlight before and you accused me of cherry picking. The highlighted parts clearly shows the process to receive the holy spirit. If you disagree you must be able to prove otherwise. You have fail to do so, so far. I could be wrong.
Until you have proven me wrong I will point out your mistake each time you use a/s/k.
I will be away for a few days, so this is the reason I will not reply to any of your posts in the next few days.
I agree with alpo, because she identified the problem. I do not see the problem you are trying to bring to my attention.
You do not see it because if you do then your whole 'ministry and belief system' is wrong. Ever heard of the expression of 'putting all your eggs in one basket'.
Quote:You presented a problem I provided a solution, you simply rephrased and do not see or understand how my original answer still answers your question. If you've asked another question I still do not see it.
You are either intellectually dishonest or ignorant. Either way a/s/k is invalid.
(September 29, 2013 at 9:21 pm)Drich Wrote: I agree with alpo, because she identified the problem. I do not see the problem you are trying to bring to my attention.
You do not see it because if you do then your whole 'ministry and belief system' is wrong. Ever heard of the expression of 'putting all your eggs in one basket'.
Quote:You presented a problem I provided a solution, you simply rephrased and do not see or understand how my original answer still answers your question. If you've asked another question I still do not see it.
You are either intellectually dishonest or ignorant. Either way a/s/k is invalid.
Without 'proof' these are unfounded accusations. if you believe them to be true anyway you have moved into delusion. You are lying to yourself despite that fact that your conclusions are unsupported with truth.
So how does that differ from what you have accused me of doing? (without proof mind you.)
(October 2, 2013 at 11:50 pm)Waratah Wrote: You do not see it because if you do then your whole 'ministry and belief system' is wrong. Ever heard of the expression of 'putting all your eggs in one basket'.
You are either intellectually dishonest or ignorant. Either way a/s/k is invalid.
Without 'proof' these are unfounded accusations. if you believe them to be true anyway you have moved into delusion. You are lying to yourself despite that fact that your conclusions are unsupported with truth.
So how does that differ from what you have accused me of doing? (without proof mind you.)
Difference is you avoid my posts. Reply to my rebuttals and/or answer my questions from this post.
Quote:As the final appeal to authority I will turn to the Greek or Hebrew.
Silly shit remains silly shit no matter what language it is written in.
I was just going to post something, but you said it for me.
You could translate the Koran in french and Japanese but that will never make Allah a real god.
I have said many times, even before you get to the first letter of ANY version of ANY holy book of ANY religion, you still are stupidly swallowing the idea that some invisible human like entity with a magic wand exists.
Anything that follows "super natural being" is an argument as shitty as claiming invisible pink unicorns.
(September 29, 2013 at 6:53 am)Waratah Wrote: this was a neighbor? In luke 11-5 to 13 it clearly states that it is a friend, NOT a neighbour. Why do you insist saying it was a neighbour?
As i pointed out Christ identifies anyone in procximity to you as your neighbor. Hence the parable of the Good sameritian. Therefore if your in proxcimity to a friend he then also considered a neighbor.
Quote:The following only answers your question, it would be relevant if you could prove that all neighbours are friends.
..I proved that Christ considers all who you come in contact with to be considered as neighbors this includes friends. I simply used the term to distinguish between the 'friend' in the house who had the bread, verses the friend/neighbor outside, and the 'friend' who the bread was for.
Quote:Plus the friend only gave the loaves to get rid of the friend not due to kindness. You are being intellectually dishonest.
Which is why Christ said:
13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.”
The time given in the story and the fact they did not have cars puts the 'friend' in close proximity to the seeker of the breads house. Not to mention this was said by Christ in the pervious chapter:
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
The fact that the man in the house help the man outside makes him a neighbor according to Christ which is the only definition that matters as we are speaking of Christianity.
Quote:Question the conversion of asking into knocking. To knock simple means to repeat the process, or to keep seeking and to keep asking. (Like you have done In Your hound dogging me)
Christ tells us to do this in: 9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Quote:Where in those 2 verses does it say either to keep asking repeatedly or that asking turns into a knocking.
I did not say asking turns into knocking.
and it says to keep A/S/K repeatedly here: I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them.
Quote:Here is drich trying to set up another out by not even trying to answer the question honestly.
Nuupe. I've answered this question 10 times now with the same verse. You do not see it as an answer because your strawman has me saying asking turns into knocking.
Quote:So now I am forced to ask again and he will say "but I already answered that question". Sorry drich you and everyone else knows...
Which is why several of your brothers in arms have conceeded the point for you.
Quote:Your answer once again has nothing to do with the question. Avoiding questions. Reminds me of one of your threads. hock: The question came about because you asserted that the repeated asking makes it a knock.
Nupe. Again this is the reason this discussion has stalled, you have asserted my position revolves around me saying Asking=knocking.
Quote:No seeking or knocking there to get the holy spirit, only ask. Non answer again.
Indeed which is what I have said from the beginning.
Quote:In luke 11-5 to 13 it clearly states that it is a friend, NOT a neighbour. [u]Why do you insist saying it was a neighbour?
Because the man at the door and the man in the house were in proxcimity to one another which Jesus identifies as neighbors.
Quote:Now I would like you now to show me where christ converts the asking into knocking?
first you show me where I said asking converts to knocking.
Quote:How many asks does it take to equal a knock?
Again first you show me where I said asking converts to knocking.
Quote:Please show me what will be found if I "seek"? No assumptions please.
It is a three part process as I already pointed out we are supposed to be A/S/K for the Holy Spirit. Therefore we will receive the Holy Spirit.
As Per Christ's words:13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.”
Quote:Please show me what will be opened if I "knock"? No assumptions please.
"The Door" What door? The door in Heaven That is currently keeping you from the Holy Spirit.
Quote:Do you understand the following?
Let us just assume your right about such a thing as the holy spirit for the following.
Ask you will receive
The Holy Spirit
Quote:Seek you will find
The Holy spirit
Quote:Knock you will open
And the Door the Holy Spirit stands behind will be open to you.
How do we know this? Because this is the only thing Christ said God was going to give us as a 'gift.'
To receive the holy spirit you must ask.(luke 11-13)
No not correct. None of these examples fit the formula Christ gave.
Quote:If you cannot answer honestly I will just have to accept that a/s/k is bullshit as I have proven to you before and you have failed to prove otherwise. Thanks for playing.
and when I do? will you conceed the point and receive Christ as your Lord and savior??? No you say?!?!? I'm shocked, oh, wait no im not, because i know you just want to argue something ad naseum so you may simply have the last word, and then proclaim victory, but now that you took a break[/u] away from the arguement, and everyone else gets it and has backed off, i have gotten my second wind and can go around and around another month if you like.
(September 29, 2013 at 6:53 am)Waratah Wrote: this was a neighbor? In luke 11-5 to 13 it clearly states that it is a friend, NOT a neighbour. Why do you insist saying it was a neighbour?
As i pointed out Christ identifies anyone in procximity to you as your neighbor. Hence the parable of the Good sameritian. Therefore if your in proxcimity to a friend he then also considered a neighbor.
You are being intellectually dishonest. No where in the verses you showed says anything about a neighbour being someone who is close by. If that would be true then the robbers, priest and levite would be classified as neighbours, which is incorrect since only the one who showed mercy is classified as the neighbour. If you cannot admit your error here you are a liar.
Quote:
Quote:The following only answers your question, it would be relevant if you could prove that all neighbours are friends.
..I proved that Christ considers all who you come in contact with to be considered as neighbors this includes friends. I simply used the term to distinguish between the 'friend' in the house who had the bread, verses the friend/neighbor outside, and the 'friend' who the bread was for.
Being dishonest again drich. where you use the term neighbour instead of friend. I say you are lying since you use the term for both the person wanting the bread and the one not want to give it. It is quite clear in this post that the reason you do not use the term friend is because one of my arguments relies on the fact that they are friends.
Well from now on let us agree that when jesus said “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say," that friend here stays as friend and not neighbour. This means that there was no seeking in the context of finding in the parable.
Quote:
Quote:Plus the friend only gave the loaves to get rid of the friend not due to kindness. You are being intellectually dishonest.
Which is why Christ said:
13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.”
Here we are still talking about your use of neighbour not verse 13. Here I am pointing out that the friend is not a neighbour going by christs standards due to him not helping his friend straight away. Or are you saying that the friend did get up straight away to help him? Now that would certainly change things.
Quote:
The time given in the story and the fact they did not have cars puts the 'friend' in close proximity to the seeker of the breads house. Not to mention this was said by Christ in the pervious chapter:
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
The fact that the man in the house help the man outside makes him a neighbor according to Christ which is the only definition that matters as we are speaking of Christianity.
Quote:Question the conversion of asking into knocking. To knock simple means to repeat the process, or to keep seeking and to keep asking. (Like you have done In Your hound dogging me)
Christ tells us to do this in: 9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Quote:Where in those 2 verses does it say either to keep asking repeatedly or that asking turns into a knocking.
"knocking as described by Christ is the repetive nature of the asking, and the fact this man remained at his neighbors door step asking/petitioning his neighbor for the bread he desperately needed."
If you got this wrong what else are you wrong about drich?
Quote:and it says to keep A/S/K repeatedly here: I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them.
Quote:Here is drich trying to set up another out by not even trying to answer the question honestly.
Nuupe. I've answered this question 10 times now with the same verse. You do not see it as an answer because your strawman has me saying asking turns into knocking.
Quote:So now I am forced to ask again and he will say "but I already answered that question". Sorry drich you and everyone else knows...
Which is why several of your brothers in arms have conceeded the point for you.
Why cut off my quote? Full quote is
"So now I am forced to ask again and he will say "but I already answered that question". Sorry drich you and everyone else knows that the only answer is that asking does not turn into knocking."
Quote:
Quote:Your answer once again has nothing to do with the question. Avoiding questions. Reminds me of one of your threads. hock: The question came about because you asserted that the repeated asking makes it a knock.
Nupe. Again this is the reason this discussion has stalled, you have asserted my position revolves around me saying Asking=knocking.
Quote:No seeking or knocking there to get the holy spirit, only ask. Non answer again.
Indeed which is what I have said from the beginning.
You have removed quotes here. My reply of "No seeking or knocking there to get the holy spirit, only ask." was in reply to verse luke 11-13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Finally drich admits that there is no seeking or knocking to get the holy spirit. The part he got wrong is the "said from the beginning.". Please show me where you have said this in the beginning?
Quote:
Quote:In luke 11-5 to 13 it clearly states that it is a friend, NOT a neighbour. Why do you insist saying it was a neighbour?
Because the man at the door and the man in the house were in proxcimity to one another which Jesus identifies as neighbors.
See above where I have proven proximity has nothing to do with neighbours.
Quote:
Quote:Now I would like you now to show me where christ converts the asking into knocking?
first you show me where I said asking converts to knocking.
Quote:How many asks does it take to equal a knock?
Again first you show me where I said asking converts to knocking.
Quote:Please show me what will be found if I "seek"? No assumptions please.
It is a three part process as I already pointed out we are supposed to be A/S/K for the Holy Spirit. Therefore we will receive the Holy Spirit.
As Per Christ's words:13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.”
You just said above that there is no seeking or knocking to get the holy spirit. You do not find the holy spirit, it is given according to verse luke 11-13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Where in the above verse is there any seeking? There is none. So why do you use verse 13 to try and prove your a/s/k when there is no seeking? Non answer again.
Quote:
Quote:Please show me what will be opened if I "knock"? No assumptions please.
"The Door" What door? The door in Heaven That is currently keeping you from the Holy Spirit.
But you agree there is no knocking to receive the holy spirit when you stated
"Indeed which is what I have said from the beginning."
I said no assumptions please. Non answer again
Quote:
Quote:Do you understand the following?
Let us just assume your right about such a thing as the holy spirit for the following.
Ask you will receive
The Holy Spirit
Quote:Seek you will find
The Holy spirit
Quote:Knock you will open
And the Door the Holy Spirit stands behind will be open to you.
How do we know this? Because this is the only thing Christ said God was going to give us as a 'gift.'
To receive the holy spirit you must ask.(luke 11-13)
No not correct. None of these examples fit the formula Christ gave.
So the answer is you do not understand the above. Christ did not give the formula a/s/k, it is you. You still have to prove that to receive the holy spirit you must seek and/or knock with ask to receive.
I will state again that in luke 11 it says that to receive the holy spirit you must ask. Read luke 11-13. It is as simple as that.
Quote:
Quote:If you cannot answer honestly I will just have to accept that a/s/k is bullshit as I have proven to you before and you have failed to prove otherwise. Thanks for playing.
and when I do? will you conceed the point and receive Christ as your Lord and savior??? No you say?!?!? I'm shocked, oh, wait no im not, because i know you just want to argue something ad naseum so you may simply have the last word, and then proclaim victory, but now that you took a break[/u] away from the arguement, and everyone else gets it and has backed off, i have gotten my second wind and can go around and around another month if you like.
Drich you are a liar as I have proven in this post and in previous posts. What you say is worthless. As I said answer honestly or I will have to accept a/s/k is bullshit. You have failed to answer honestly therefore a/s/k is bullshit.
You have proven that either your comprehension skills are lacking or your are intellectually dishonest. Which one it is only your can truly answer that, but you seem to have selective comprehension skills. That is why I believe is is the latter.
You've seem more than willing to compound this arguement needlessly so I will simplify it by taking on one subject matter at a time.
Quote:You are being intellectually dishonest. No where in the verses you showed says anything about a neighbour being someone who is close by. If that would be true then the robbers, priest and levite would be classified as neighbours, which is incorrect since only the one who showed mercy is classified as the neighbour. If you cannot admit your error here you are a liar.
The reason I used the word neighbor instead of friend. I was simply trying to simply the story here. There were three friends being mentioned in the parable. The one who came to see his friend for a long ways away. Friend 1 friend two was friends with both men he was the one looking for bread at midnight. Friend 3 was only friends with the guy looking for bread. I called hi. A neighbor because that separates him from friend one and identifies him as the guy with the bread with out further identifying friend 2. I have conceded the scriptures identify him as a friend. That said I kept using the term neighbor as it still applies. Because Christ per the parable of the good sameritain identifies anyone that your in proximity with as your neighbor. Which means technically it is correct to call friend 1,2,3 neighbors.
Do you understand this? If yes also understand your use of the word friend in an arguement mean and has never meant anything to me as I use the terms interchangeably
I will not continue till you agree to put this issue to rest.
hock: The question came about because you asserted that the repeated asking makes it a knock.
Non answer again.
Thanks for playing.
