What Was Before ' the Beginning '....?

[Sword of Christ]

There's no evidence, and hence no reason to believe.

Look at the vast complexity of the universe, of life and exact level of precise perfect natural balance required to achieve this level of development. You think this was random unintentional chance? Come get a bit serious here. I'm not even going into all the other different kinds of evidence you're ignoring on sight.

You keep saying there could be no evidence, and therefore the god you believe in has absolutely no reason to believe in him. You dug this hole yourself.

Yes there is evidence it's all around you hidden in plain sight. You don't want to see what you don't want to see that's whats happening here.

Assuming that you're going to define god by those rigid characteristics alone.

That God is you may as well define the shape of the Earth as a cube than define him as something that is not the creator of the universe. You just wouldn't be factually right if you define it differently. Yes there is some flexibility in the specifics say monotheism, trintarianism, panentheism, monism or whatever.

So if it's beyond our understanding, what possible justification could you have for believing that it's god?

Deductive reasoning, historical evidence, logic, philosophy, personal experience and faith. Science is neutral but personally I see revealing the hand of God in his works, fully compatible with the concept of an intelligent creator.

Just because you assert that, doesn't make it so. How many black holes do we have, tearing into the universe and destroying everything in their path?

No black holes, no super massive stars, no heavy elements generated by those stars, no planets and therefore no life. Come on think about this.

How many uninhabitable worlds, separated by immense distances of nothingness suffused with radiation? How many tiny particles of space debris that, simply due to the laws of physics, become deadly missiles before they hit something?

God didn't have to micromanage every last single atom he just had to calculate a universe with the exact perfect balance required for life and then he ran the program.

When you demand that we see all this as "perfectly balanced" you're just being a toddler. The more we learn about the universe, the more nonsensical, complex and dangerous it becomes.

Yes it's perfectly balanced, life would not ever have had existed in the first place had anything been even remotely adjusted. We know as a fact we can simulate what would have happened. And no life wouldn't have evolved anyway but "been different" it would not exist, stars would not exist, planets would not exist, nothing but some kind formless chaos or a super massive black hole the size of the universe.

Oh, and incidentally, what kind of science education do you have?

University graduate level.

No, we know there was a point at which the universe as we know it came into existence. That's not a creation, in any sense of the word.

It was the creation of our universe. I'm not saying there isn't anything else besides our universe, quite the opposite really. You're the one saying this physical universe here is literally all there is and it somehow generates itself or something. The logic of a universe without a creator is balls.

Yawn, more bare assertions with nothing to support them.

Christians believe in God, Muslims believe in God, Jews believe in God, Hindus believe in God (different version but it still counts), Baha'i believe in God, Sikhs believe in God, Native Americans believe in God, they all believe in God the creator and purpose of all life. Jainism and Buddhism are technically non-theist religions but that only means they believe God to be irrelevant to personal salvation/enlightenment which has to be done yourself not through God.

[Something completely different]

‎****************************************************‎
‎ I think that , Darwin hypothesis is a logic 'interpret' for the beginning ‎and Evolution of all organists ‎ , and all objections to it were found to ‎be weak . this hypothesis lead us to some questions to complete the ‎whole picture; if the beginning was some 'molecules and ‎atoms ' ‎which combined together to constitute some biological cells ‎‎( by ‎accident ) , and these cells started to multiply and produce ‎different ‎organists , and evolution occurred due to the " natural ‎selection " ‎and\or, due to the variations of the surrounding ‎environments…. etc. ‎‎:-‎
‎1) what is the - source - of all these ' atoms ' , (material) from ‎which ‎‎, the first cells were assembled ??‎
‎2) if we could move back on the ' time line ' , when was ‎the ‎beginning of this world around us ? where , the accident of ‎‎ ' cell ‎assembly ' occurred ?? and what was - before - this ‎beginning ??‎
‎3) if we could move forever in any direction , in the universe , ‎what ‎will be at the end ? is it more space ? then we still in our ‎world !!. is ‎it blocked by some material ? then what is behind …??‎
hoping to find logical answers , in order to get better ‎‎ understanding ‎to our existence..... ‎

WRITING WITH BIG LETTERS DOES NOT MAKE THE READER THINK THAT I HAVE A POINT, NORE THAT I AM IMPORTANT OR SMART.

Only the content of what I write does that. When will you people finaly get it? You are writing here and not holding a speech.

[Esquilax]

Look at the vast complexity of the universe, of life and exact level of precise perfect natural balance required to achieve this level of development. You think this was random unintentional chance? Come get a bit serious here. I'm not even going into all the other different kinds of evidence you're ignoring on sight.

There is so much wrong with this. First of all, you're committing an argument from ignorance and and argument from personal incredulity: your inability to figure this stuff out doesn't mean your simpleton's answer is the correct one.

Secondly, as I've told you multiple times, asserting that everything is in perfect balance just means you're lying, because the actual facts detail a universe that is amazingly chaotic and random.

Thirdly, your continued recourse to "random, unintentional chance" is similarly dishonest, because there's more than just chance involved: each and every development in the universe is scaffolded by those developments that have come before, consequences flowing from one state of matter to another. All of those developments are supported by the predictable ways in which the laws of physics function. To characterize this as random just shows how little you actually understand the universe you claim to know the secrets of.

I'm serious: you know next to nothing about science, all the while claiming to know everything. It's just embarrassing.

Yes there is evidence it's all around you hidden in plain sight. You don't want to see what you don't want to see that's whats happening here.

Uh huh, which is why you didn't present any beyond your own ignorance, and instead went to the standard, dishonest god wad trick of jut reinterpreting my motivations. Grow the fuck up, you damn child.

That God is you may as well define the shape of the Earth as a cube than define him as something that is not the creator of the universe. You just wouldn't be factually right if you define it differently. Yes there is some flexibility in the specifics say monotheism, trintarianism, panentheism, monism or whatever.

I... I just don't really care. Define god however you want, it doesn't get you any closer to demonstrating it.

Deductive reasoning, historical evidence, logic, philosophy, personal experience and faith. Science is neutral but personally I see revealing the hand of God in his works, fully compatible with the concept of an intelligent creator.

Deductive reasoning fails if you feed false information into it, and you've already shown you understand very little about the universe. There is no historical evidence of anything from the bible. Logic also fails if you feed it false premises. Philosophy doesn't work because you can't think something into existence. Personal experience is useless to me or anyone else, and you can't distinguish it from a delusion if you can't how it to anyone else. Faith is the biggest load of crap ever.

Got anything real?

No black holes, no super massive stars, no heavy elements generated by those stars, no planets and therefore no life. Come on think about this.

And an all powerful, intelligent creator god couldn't come up with a less destructive means of creation? I mean, according to you he was just popping things into existence, why not just skip the black hole stage?

God didn't have to micromanage every last single atom he just had to calculate a universe with the exact perfect balance required for life and then he ran the program.

So, your perfect balance is perfect in the sense that it's currently completely imperfect? It's perfect in the one way you could not possibly know that it's perfect, because you don't know about how the universe was formed any more than anyone else does?

So it's perfect in the sense of a lie?

Yes it's perfectly balanced, life would not ever have had existed in the first place had anything been even remotely adjusted.

First of all, you're probably wrong. But even if you were right, all you've proven is that life as we know it couldn't have survived, not all life at all.

We know as a fact we can simulate what would have happened. And no life wouldn't have evolved anyway but "been different" it would not exist, stars would not exist, planets would not exist, nothing but some kind formless chaos or a super massive black hole the size of the universe.

How the fuck would you know?

University graduate level.

Ah ha yeah, not going to get away with that. What's your degree? Because I'm pretty sure universities give theology degrees too.

It was the creation of our universe. I'm not saying there isn't anything else besides our universe, quite the opposite really. You're the one saying this physical universe here is literally all there is and it somehow generates itself or something. The logic of a universe without a creator is balls.

If you keep telling me what I believe instead of asking me about it, I'm just going to call you a liar and move on. You are being dishonest; don't you care?

Is that what Jesus would want for you?

[Kayenneh]

There was an eternally existing God beyond time that's what there was.

To paraphrase Carl Sagan, if god(s) always was and is, has no beginning and end, why is it so hard to apply the same to the universe and remove the supernatural and focus on the natural?

Why do atheists have to make it difficult by claiming he isn't real?

Because it's bullshit.

a) Why do you think it's a he? If a being of that magnitude existed, and is the only one, gender is absolutely irrelevant.
b) Which gods?
c) Why do most of them require worship?
d) What is a god?
e) If humans are made in the image of a god and it thinks we're mighty special, why is it that in the observable universe we have yet to find another place where we can exist without aid from our own technology?
f) Why the faulty holy scriptures everywhere?
g) Why does the belief in god(s) seemt to correlate with geographic location?

And the list goes on..

(Just so that we're clear, these are examples of why atheists make it 'difficult' and are not questions I expect to get answered.)

[max-greece]

There's no evidence, and hence no reason to believe.

Look at the vast complexity of the universe, of life and exact level of precise perfect natural balance required to achieve this level of development. You think this was random unintentional chance? Come get a bit serious here. I'm not even going into all the other different kinds of evidence you're ignoring on sight.

Yes - look at it. 70% dark matter, 30% dark energy just under 1% is everything we can see (stars, planets etc.) 100 billion galaxies, 100 billion stars per galaxy, 10^23 stars in total. All created 13.72 billion years ago.

Earth - 4.5 billion years old, life 4.0 billion years old. Man 200,000 years old (at most).

And you think God made all this for us? Doesn't that make him, like, the worst designer imaginable? How inefficient can he be? And yet - there is efficiency in evolution, re-using of genetic codes and materials, whilst, there is huge inefficiency, lots of junk DNA.

Sure looks like a natural process to me - almost as if it all evolved under natural selection.

You keep saying there could be no evidence, and therefore the god you believe in has absolutely no reason to believe in him. You dug this hole yourself.

Yes there is evidence it's all around you hidden in plain sight. You don't want to see what you don't want to see that's whats happening here.

See above - its too easy to allocate complexity to some grand design of plan. There is just no evidence of such.

Assuming that you're going to define god by those rigid characteristics alone.

That God is you may as well define the shape of the Earth as a cube than define him as something that is not the creator of the universe. You just wouldn't be factually right if you define it differently. Yes there is some flexibility in the specifics say monotheism, trintarianism, panentheism, monism or whatever.

You haven't provided an answer as to why he couldn't be the creator of our universe but a janitor in his own.

So if it's beyond our understanding, what possible justification could you have for believing that it's god?

Deductive reasoning, historical evidence, logic, philosophy, personal experience and faith. Science is neutral but personally I see revealing the hand of God in his works, fully compatible with the concept of an intelligent creator.

We see what we want to in the main. You see design. I see explicable processes with remaining questions.

Just because you assert that, doesn't make it so. How many black holes do we have, tearing into the universe and destroying everything in their path?

No black holes, no super massive stars, no heavy elements generated by those stars, no planets and therefore no life. Come on think about this.

You think. You are using completely opposing arguments to support your case. One minute we have a God that can create an entire universe from nothing. The next he needs complex processes (that happen to look entirely like natural processes) to make us - something he is supposed to have done by picking up an handful of dust. Picking and choosing bits of science you understand is actually undermining your case. Either stick to magic or embrace all the science.

How many uninhabitable worlds, separated by immense distances of nothingness suffused with radiation? How many tiny particles of space debris that, simply due to the laws of physics, become deadly missiles before they hit something?

God didn't have to micromanage every last single atom he just had to calculate a universe with the exact perfect balance required for life and then he ran the program.

Hard to imagine he could have done a worse job then. Look how inefficient the whole thing is if the target is us. 98% of all the species that ever lived have gone extinct over a 4 billion year history just to come up with us 200,000 years ago.

When you demand that we see all this as "perfectly balanced" you're just being a toddler. The more we learn about the universe, the more nonsensical, complex and dangerous it becomes.

Yes it's perfectly balanced, life would not ever have had existed in the first place had anything been even remotely adjusted. We know as a fact we can simulate what would have happened. And no life wouldn't have evolved anyway but "been different" it would not exist, stars would not exist, planets would not exist, nothing but some kind formless chaos or a super massive black hole the size of the universe.

Oh its supposition time. If the universe had been different any life it created would have been different - not non-existent - you are just assuming that. Different means different. It could have been massless and energy based. We have no idea. You do not know any more than I do.

Oh, and incidentally, what kind of science education do you have?

University graduate level.

No, we know there was a point at which the universe as we know it came into existence. That's not a creation, in any sense of the word.

It was the creation of our universe. I'm not saying there isn't anything else besides our universe, quite the opposite really. You're the one saying this physical universe here is literally all there is and it somehow generates itself or something. The logic of a universe without a creator is balls.

Nice to see how well you have grasped the opposing argument.

Yawn, more bare assertions with nothing to support them.

Christians believe in God, Muslims believe in God, Jews believe in God, Hindus believe in God (different version but it still counts), Baha'i believe in God, Sikhs believe in God, Native Americans believe in God, they all believe in God the creator and purpose of all life. Jainism and Buddhism are technically non-theist religions but that only means they believe God to be irrelevant to personal salvation/enlightenment which has to be done yourself not through God.

Yes - there is a genetic tendency of humanity to allocate reason and intelligent forces to things where there are none.

[StuW]

3) if we could move forever in any direction , in the universe , ‎what ‎will be at the end ? is it more space ? then we still in our ‎world !!. is ‎it blocked by some material ? then what is behind …??‎

If you move forever in any direction on the face of the earth, what will be at the end?

There was an eternally existing God beyond time that's what there was.

So he is eternal, as in infinite? so there was an infinate amount of time before he created this universe? surely that means he never got round to it?

[Airyaman]

There was an eternally existing God beyond time that's what there was. Why do atheists have to make it difficult by claiming he isn't real?

You're kidding, right? You do know what atheism is? You've been here over a month, surely you've figured this out.

[Norfolk And Chance]

What was before the beginning? No one knows. Therefore, god. Love the logic.

If there was actually "anything" before the "beginning", it is equally credible (ie not credible at all) to imagine that there might have been any of...

A timeless dimension
Nothing
Something
A singularity
Another universe that went through a big crunch, then blew up in a big bang
No beginning, as the universe is eternal
A massive bar of chocolate
Godschild's smugness
A fairy
God
Two hundred trillion magic testicles...

and so on.

No one knows and can know what was before the "beginning"....it could be anything, or nothing. I just can't see how "god" can be a better answer than a tube of fucking smarties or a massive interstellar used condom. They all have equal supporting evidence. NONE!

---

There was an eternally existing God beyond time that's what there was. Why do atheists have to make it difficult by claiming he isn't real?

OK, games up.

I call POE.

[Sword of Christ]

There is so much wrong with this. First of all, you're committing an argument from ignorance and and argument from personal incredulity: your inability to figure this stuff out doesn't mean your simpleton's answer is the correct one.

You're the one who ignorant and providing the simpleton non-answer that the universe just exists because it created itself and was perfect for complex life by blind luck. Get serious here, you know you're wrong. At least deep down somewhere you must have some concerns about what you actually believe in face of the everything to contrary.

Secondly, as I've told you multiple times, asserting that everything is in perfect balance just means you're lying

For fucks sake it just is you don't need to assert that it is you just look at it. You don't have to learn much science to know this. A lot of scientists do actually manage to ignore this but a lot of them are serious hardcore fundamentalist materialists or they just don't think outside the box.

because the actual facts detail a universe that is amazingly chaotic and random.

Yet we can study and perfectly well understand it all, there is a lot to understand because it is perfectly well ordered, structured and can be figured out. This is because an intelligent mind created the thing not a blind purposeless force. Look how the universe developed and expanded over time, look at everything that formed and was produced. See the sheer amount of stuff that had to go on before the first ever form of life could be formed in the first bit of primordial ooze anywhere. That is not a blind chaos.

Precise mathematical structures.



Mathematical Structure.

http://www.le.ac.uk/ph/faulkes/web/images/onion.jpg

Mathematical structures.

http://nunsthorpecommunity.org/wp-conten...rth-1-.jpg

Moar structure.



Mathematical structures.



Mathematical structures.



Mathematical structures.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18f8gyjy...xlarge.jpg

Mathematical structures, really very serious complex structure. The universe itself was finely crafted to create this ultimate product, that's you yourself right there.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...atures.jpg

Precise and structured cosmological formation over time. An orderly sequence and chain of events.



Look at all this damn you! See and believe!



Do you see this? Life, complexity, a process of formation over time!



Come on, bollocks was this all this coincidental or a byproduct of a blind force! A product of a supreme consciousness this was, it's clear enough to see.

Thirdly, your continued recourse to "random, unintentional chance" is similarly dishonest, because there's more than just chance involved: each and every development in the universe is scaffolded by those developments that have come before

Exactly, you understand this so why are calling it a random unintentional chaos?

, consequences flowing from one state of matter to another. All of those developments are supported by the predictable ways in which the laws of physics function.

YES!

You see you do understand what I mean.

To characterize this as random just shows how little you actually understand the universe you claim to know the secrets of.

No you're trying to say it's a random chaos, and then you turn around and say it's orderly, structured and understandable. Of course it is, God created it the flaming thing!

I'm serious: you know next to nothing about science, all the while claiming to know everything.

I know as much as yourself but I'm coming to honest conclusion here not trying to pass it off as "random chaos" then claiming it's understandable and predictable!

It's just embarrassing.

You embarrass yourself with your half arsed double standards and denial of the reality of God more like. The structure of the universe is only half the issue don't get say the objectivity of morality and the nature of good and evil and freewill.

Uh huh, which is why you didn't present any beyond your own ignorance, and instead went to the standard, dishonest god wad trick of jut reinterpreting my motivations. Grow the fuck up, you damn child.

No no you are the child here who needs to grow the fuck up and accept the truth that God does exist. The truth is all around you and you yourself demonstrated that you actually understand it. You're just being dishonest with yourself and applying double standards. Predictable pure random chaos is it? Yes contradict yourself.

I... I just don't really care. Define god however you want, it doesn't get you any closer to demonstrating it.

Demonstrate it to yourself by opening your eyes and actually looking. The truth is the truth and you go where the evidence takes you it doesn't matter if you don't like the truth or you find it uncomfortable.

Deductive reasoning fails if you feed false information into it, and you've already shown you understand very little about the universe.

No I haven't shown a lack of understanding of the universe it's you who are showing a lack of understanding with your double standard arguments.

There is no historical evidence of anything from the bible.

The people, places and historical events are true. Visions, prophecies, miracles or whatever are contentious issues yes and will have to be taken on faith, but there is a good case that the resurrection occurred. Even if it didn't you still don't get to deny the existence of God. At least without a decent argument that doesn't apply a double standard.

Logic also fails if you feed it false premises. Philosophy doesn't work because you can't think something into existence.

You can come to the truth with a little bit of thought, the ancient Greek philosophers did this and generally the consensus was that there is an uncreated first cause. It's just common sense you need faith for this.

Personal experience is useless to me or anyone else

You only say because you don't have any, or you think you don't have any. You lack/deny the experience because you're claiming God is a myth/delusion.

, and you can't distinguish it from a delusion if you can't how it to anyone else. Faith is the biggest load of crap ever

No atheism is the biggest load of crap ever. Atheism is the delusion not theism, God is real and the arguments for his existence are rock solid.

Got anything real?

The universe God himself created is real enough as is the conscious experience of existence we have of it and the conscious experience billions of people have of what lays behind it all. Though no doubt you want to deny the whole of reality as some kind of myth or delusion you may as well.

And an all powerful, intelligent creator god couldn't come up with a less destructive means of creation?

Yes if you don't want to have freewill or biological physical life.

I mean, according to you he was just popping things into existence, why not just skip the black hole stage?

I'm sure he didn't just "pop something into existence" it will be more complicated than that. Possibly a series of emanations and dimensions of different layers of space and time or whatever, we don't fucking know. Black holes are a result of the law of gravity having to be the way it has to be, it's a vital ingredient and it had to be very precisely exactly as it is there wasn't room for error.

So, your perfect balance is perfect in the sense that it's currently completely imperfect? It's perfect in the one way you could not possibly know that it's perfect, because you don't know about how the universe was formed any more than anyone else does?

The physical laws of the universe can be adjusted and run on computer simulations so we know how precise it has to be. It had be 100% exactly as it is. Perfect mathematical design and structure right the way through, an orderly sequence of construction.

So it's perfect in the sense of a lie?

Perfect as in perfect for the formation of utterly complex biological beings. No margin for error. The universe was made intentionally for this very purpose and this intentional purpose giver is God. You don't go around around denying his existence or the works of his hands. You have you biological father here on Earth who made your physical body and your heavenly father who made your eternal soul.

First of all, you're probably wrong. But even if you were right, all you've proven is that life as we know it couldn't have survived, not all life at all.

Biological life could not exist had the universe been any different and we know this is true. Yes God could have created something entirely different and he did, there are other realities than our current experience of the physical universe.

How the fuck would you know?

Because I have read book about this, the precise balance of the natural laws required for life is scientifically factually true. This isn't open to debate it's just how it is.

Ah ha yeah, not going to get away with that. What's your degree? Because I'm pretty sure universities give theology degrees too.

Environmental Biology but that has nothing to do with this issue.

If you keep telling me what I believe instead of asking me about it, I'm just going to call you a liar and move on. You are being dishonest; don't you care?

I know atheism as a belief is all about and it's just plain wrong, even if Christianity is wrong atheism is still wrong. I'm explaining why it's wrong.

Is that what Jesus would want for you?

Jesus was a religious kind of a guy you know. I think he may had a bit of a belief in God there, I just get that impression that he may have agreed with me on the God issue. So yes he would want that for me and he would want that for as well. Least you can do if he died for your sins?

[Norfolk And Chance]

Thanks for all the pictures, it nicely shows how life evolved all by itself, with no need for god.