What Was Before ' the Beginning '....?

[HUMAN BRAIN]

Boru

nice tie .....!!

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Organists? Really?

You did say Human Brain?

Still, on the offchance you're not trolling us, I'll try and unpick some of this stuff; if not for you then for anyone playing along at home.

if the beginning was some 'molecules and ‎atoms ' ‎which combined together to constitute some biological cells ‎‎( by ‎accident ) ,

Whoops - physical, chemical and biological matter obeying physical, chemical and biological laws are not "by accident".

and these cells started to multiply and produce ‎different ‎organists , and evolution occurred due to the " natural ‎selection " ‎and\or, due to the variations of the surrounding ‎environments…. etc. ‎‎:-‎

Natural selection is only one part of the picture, but 60% success so far.

‎

1) what is the - source - of all these ' atoms ' , (material) from ‎which ‎‎, the first cells were assembled ??‎

On Earth, most likely physics and chemistry. At the formation of the Universe, energy. In spades.

‎

2) if we could move back on the ' time line ' , when was ‎the ‎beginning of this world around us ? where , the accident of ‎‎ ' cell ‎assembly ' occurred ?? and what was - before - this ‎beginning ??‎

- If by "this world" you mean the Earth, then some four and a half thousand million years ago (I hate and detest the transatlantic version of 'billion' with a passion like you wouldn't believe and never, ever use it unless I literally have no other option. I make damn sure I always have another option).

- If you mean the Universe, then around thirteen to fourteen thousand million years ago.

- There was no accident of cell assembly, but it occurred right here on Earth. Most likely it occurred elsewhere as well, in fact I think it incredibly likely to be a fairly common, even inevitable, consequence of planet formation. But that's just my personal opinion.

- Before the beginning makes no sense for the Universe, so the only true and correct answer is "nobody knows, but there are some interesting educated speculations". Before the beginning in terms of the Earth, i.e. before life formed, there was only the Earth and its atmospheric and chemical makeup.

‎

3) if we could move forever in any direction , in the universe , ‎what ‎will be at the end ? is it more space ? then we still in our ‎world !!. is ‎it blocked by some material ? then what is behind …??‎

- You probably wouldn't find an end, just more Universe. You might possibly even end up right back where you started, though I do remember reading somewhere that if you could travel even at the speed of light and looped back on yourself, the Universe would have collapsed into a singularity long before you reached your starting point. Something like that, anyway.

hoping to find logical answers , in order to get better ‎‎ understanding ‎to our existence.....

Hope I've been of some help in your quest, but don't merely take my word for any of this. Also don't rely solely on logical answers; when it comes to such matters as the conditions of the Big Bang, quantum mechanics, string theory and so on, logic has to go and have a little lie down.

thanks , but , we still miss the important answer ,.... what is the source of all these '(molecules)' which constitute everything around us

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Boru

sexy tie ...!!

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I think that , Darwin hypothesis

Fail #1. Evolution is a proven theory.

is a logic 'interpret' for the beginning ‎and Evolution

What beginning? Oh, let me guess, fail #2. Abiogenesis and evolution are not the same thing.

of all organists

Organists? what of trombone players and singers? Pianists and guitarists?

if the beginning was some 'molecules and ‎atoms ' ‎which combined together to constitute some biological cells ‎‎( by ‎accident )

Not by accident, read up on basic chemistry and you'll understand why.

‎1) what is the - source - of all these ' atoms ' , (material) from ‎which ‎‎, the first cells were assembled ??‎

Stars.

‎2) if we could move back on the ' time line '

Impossible, since time is a man-made concept and only appears linear to us.

when was ‎the ‎beginning of this world around us ?

Astonishing Engrish, try to work out how to communicate your thoughts(?) before taking on the mysteries (and not so mystical happenings) of the universe.

where , the accident of ‎‎ ' cell ‎assembly ' occurred ??

The primordial soup, Tellus.

and what was - before - this ‎beginning ??‎

Nobody knows.

‎3) if we could move forever in any direction , in the universe , ‎what ‎will be at the end ?

It's not even certain that the universe has an end.

hoping to find logical answers , in order to get better ‎‎ understanding ‎to our existence..... ‎

It's good to question, but if you really want answers, go to a physics forum or hit the textbooks. And stop using annoying fonts.

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good English lessons, but , where is the answer of central question of this discussion ; " what is the source of all these ' atoms ' , which ‎constitute everything around us ??‎"

[Walking Void]

Placental mammals are more advanced than egg laying mammals and so on so you have a progression through that line as well.

Sword of Christ, that is crazy. There are 2 types of egg-laying mammals: platypus, and echidnas. You are taking practically every mammal, weighing them all against 2 mammals (monotremes), and coming up with a conclusion that these thousands of mammals... as a group mind You... are somehow "more advanced". What? And what argument does this conclusion draw for? And really, do You think moles or bats with poor to no eyesight are more advanced than a platypus for instance? And why are We relying on composition and ignorance fallacies?

[HUMAN BRAIN]

Look at the vast complexity of the universe, of life and exact level of precise perfect natural balance required to achieve this level of development. You think this was random unintentional chance? Come get a bit serious here. I'm not even going into all the other different kinds of evidence you're ignoring on sight.

There is so much wrong with this. First of all, you're committing an argument from ignorance and and argument from personal incredulity: your inability to figure this stuff out doesn't mean your simpleton's answer is the correct one.

Secondly, as I've told you multiple times, asserting that everything is in perfect balance just means you're lying, because the actual facts detail a universe that is amazingly chaotic and random.

Thirdly, your continued recourse to "random, unintentional chance" is similarly dishonest, because there's more than just chance involved: each and every development in the universe is scaffolded by those developments that have come before, consequences flowing from one state of matter to another. All of those developments are supported by the predictable ways in which the laws of physics function. To characterize this as random just shows how little you actually understand the universe you claim to know the secrets of.

I'm serious: you know next to nothing about science, all the while claiming to know everything. It's just embarrassing.

Yes there is evidence it's all around you hidden in plain sight. You don't want to see what you don't want to see that's whats happening here.

Uh huh, which is why you didn't present any beyond your own ignorance, and instead went to the standard, dishonest god wad trick of jut reinterpreting my motivations. Grow the fuck up, you damn child.

That God is you may as well define the shape of the Earth as a cube than define him as something that is not the creator of the universe. You just wouldn't be factually right if you define it differently. Yes there is some flexibility in the specifics say monotheism, trintarianism, panentheism, monism or whatever.

I... I just don't really care. Define god however you want, it doesn't get you any closer to demonstrating it.

Deductive reasoning, historical evidence, logic, philosophy, personal experience and faith. Science is neutral but personally I see revealing the hand of God in his works, fully compatible with the concept of an intelligent creator.

Deductive reasoning fails if you feed false information into it, and you've already shown you understand very little about the universe. There is no historical evidence of anything from the bible. Logic also fails if you feed it false premises. Philosophy doesn't work because you can't think something into existence. Personal experience is useless to me or anyone else, and you can't distinguish it from a delusion if you can't how it to anyone else. Faith is the biggest load of crap ever.

Got anything real?

No black holes, no super massive stars, no heavy elements generated by those stars, no planets and therefore no life. Come on think about this.

And an all powerful, intelligent creator god couldn't come up with a less destructive means of creation? I mean, according to you he was just popping things into existence, why not just skip the black hole stage?

God didn't have to micromanage every last single atom he just had to calculate a universe with the exact perfect balance required for life and then he ran the program.

So, your perfect balance is perfect in the sense that it's currently completely imperfect? It's perfect in the one way you could not possibly know that it's perfect, because you don't know about how the universe was formed any more than anyone else does?

So it's perfect in the sense of a lie?

Yes it's perfectly balanced, life would not ever have had existed in the first place had anything been even remotely adjusted.

First of all, you're probably wrong. But even if you were right, all you've proven is that life as we know it couldn't have survived, not all life at all.

We know as a fact we can simulate what would have happened. And no life wouldn't have evolved anyway but "been different" it would not exist, stars would not exist, planets would not exist, nothing but some kind formless chaos or a super massive black hole the size of the universe.

How the fuck would you know?

University graduate level.

Ah ha yeah, not going to get away with that. What's your degree? Because I'm pretty sure universities give theology degrees too.

It was the creation of our universe. I'm not saying there isn't anything else besides our universe, quite the opposite really. You're the one saying this physical universe here is literally all there is and it somehow generates itself or something. The logic of a universe without a creator is balls.

If you keep telling me what I believe instead of asking me about it, I'm just going to call you a liar and move on. You are being dishonest; don't you care?

Is that what Jesus would want for you?

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what amazing ..... , the majority of participants analyzed , or criticized me , some of them were mocking , for my English mistakes , but , no body of all gave " a logical or sensible opinion " about the questions........

[Zazzy]

what amazing ..... , the majority of participants analyzed , or criticized me , some of them were mocking , for my English mistakes , but , no body of all gave " a logical or sensible opinion " about the questions........

I'll answer all the questions in the OP right now:

We don't know.

There's a lot to be said about the arrangement of the matter that makes us all up before the Big Bang, but ultimately where did it all come from? We don't know. Where does space end? When did time begin? We don't know. Hypotheses and genuine theories abound. Physics is a trippy field.

There you go.

[HUMAN BRAIN]

Reply to Mr. Max-Greece : -
thank you for your logic thoughts . ‎
once , i read in some book that , " a mountain spoke to some ‎prophet ".....!! , and before ' closing my mind', and being mocking , an ‎idea flashed in my mind.......; that , we just sense what our nervous ‎system is designed to detect ... , but what about the effects that may ‎not be detected by us...?? -- the conclusion is that ; if one wants to ‎analyze an idea which is beyond the five senses ...., he must release ‎his mind from the experiences , which he got before , using his five ‎senses.., otherwise , he will move in a circle , and refuse any idea ‎which does not match any of his usual events and phenomenons ‎

[Tonus]

but what about the effects that may ‎not be detected by us...??

What about them? How do we quantify (or even qualify) "effects" that we cannot detect?

I can't help but notice that for many theists there is no longer a question of demonstrating god. It has come down to "how do you know he isn't out there, wearing his inviso-suit and hiding in the Undetectable Dimension of Undetectability? You can't prove that he isn't!!!"

I'm not concerned with the things that I cannot detect and therefore cannot prove. I'm interested in the things that you can demonstrate in a convincing manner. Or I would be, if you were making an attempt.

[Bucky Ball]

Boru

Well, that is a different organist.
I always knew those organists were a little strange.

[Cyberman]

Human Brain, the two questions you asked are essentially the same one, the answer to which has already been covered in the replies you were given, but for convenience I'll address them both here.

" what is the source of all these ' atoms ' , which ‎constitute everything around us ??‎"

what is the source of all these '(molecules)' which constitute everything around us

Ultimately, energy. The primeval Universe, immediately after its birth, would have been a roiling sea of sub-atomic particles, formed by the conversion of energy into matter. At first the energy of these particles would have been far too high for them to collect together, but as the Universe expanded they lost energy, cooled and suddenly were able to combine. The first atoms were born.

Once you have atoms, it's an easy step to get molecules, which are nothing more than atoms arranged in certain particular ways.

Now you're going to say "yes, but where did it all come from" aren't you?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Reply to Mr. Max-Greece : -
thank you for your logic thoughts . ‎
once , i read in some book that , " a mountain spoke to some ‎prophet ".....!! , and before ' closing my mind', and being mocking , an ‎idea flashed in my mind.......; that , we just sense what our nervous ‎system is designed to detect ... , but what about the effects that may ‎not be detected by us...?? -- the conclusion is that ; if one wants to ‎analyze an idea which is beyond the five senses ...., he must release ‎his mind from the experiences , which he got before , using his five ‎senses.., otherwise , he will move in a circle , and refuse any idea ‎which does not match any of his usual events and phenomenons ‎

Wut

[max-greece]

Human Brain,

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

Unfortunately it does appear that we have something of a language barrier. I agree its not really fair of the others to tease you on this but its a light-hearted forum so no malice is intended really.

In the meantime its quite difficult to understand your questions. When you ask where atoms and molecules come from are you referring to those on earth that lead to life itself or is the question a more general question about the universe?

If the question is about the universe then its probably a good idea to look at what is going on at the Large Hadron Collider. The most fundamental questions of physics are being investigated, pretty much as I write this. They are attempting to prove, or otherwise, the Higgs field theory (HFT).

I am no physicist but as I understand it they are trying to find out why things have mass (whilst other things don't). The HFT basically says there is a field that permeates the universe starting nanoseconds after the big bang. How different particle react to that field determines whether or not they have mass. Photons do not react with it - so they are massless. Protons and Neutrons do, quite strongly whilst electrons do less strongly.

Once we have accounted for mass then the interactions of those particles allow for the formation of simple atoms (Hydrogen and Helium) as the expanding universe cooled from its initial plasma state.

The larger and more complex atoms formed in stars which, using fusion, create enormous amounts of energy.

When the stars eventually ran out of fuel (and the larger the star the faster this happens as it burns more fuel more quickly) they collapse in on themselves under gravity and then explode outwards showering the universe with larger particles (carbon, iron etc.) which are the fundamental building blocks of life.

9 billion years after this started happening the earth formed. Everything that makes up the earth comes from the above. Just as on any planet chemical reactions occur between the different atoms but on earth this went somewhat further and larger and more complex molecules formed (as a tiny proportion of the whole thing - most of the chemical reactions were simple ones in common with the other planets).

How those eventually went on to form life, or even what the first life form was, is unknown but once life had formed evolution (mainly through natural selection) kicked in.

Hopefully that answers some of your questions.

Obviously what we do not have is any evidence at all that this process was guided in any way.