Where did the universe come from? Atheistic origin science has no answer.

[max-greece]

Creation can only happen at a point in time. Time doesn't exist outside of the universe. Therefore, it is impossible for a god to use magic to create the universe if time doesn't exist outside of it. God's power and magic are the same thing.

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The U. had a beginning, an undisputed scientific fact. Since time began with the U. The U. didn't cause itself, it's an effect.
the 2 principles of cause and effect are: cause always proceeds effect and the cause is always greater than the effect.

the U. is dimensional (4), time is one.

Terrible argument.

How can cause proceed effect without time?

If time is a part of the universe it isn't possible to talk about "before" the universe, only outside of it.

If there is time outside of the universe then it may not work in the same way as it does within the universe. It may be possible that effect happens before or concurrently with cause - we simply do not know.

Further- if you are going to bring causality into the discussion then you have to address what God's material cause was for the creation of the universe. In your case you have God as the efficient cause but there would have to be a material cause. We have no examples of efficient cause without a material cause (although we do have examples of the reverse - material cause without efficient cause).

If God created the universe from nothing then that is outside of causality as we understand it and citing causality in your argument undermines your position that God did it.

Finally - please explain how the cause is greater than the effect in the following case:

I fire a small amount of Uranium 235 into a larger amount such that the total exceeds Uranium's critical mass and Nagasaki is destroyed.

The energy put into the firing is less than 1000th of 1% of the result.

[snowtracks]

How can cause proceed effect without time?

[/quote]

God has access to at least two dim's, one being the cosmic timeline. another (or time equivalent) before the U. would be implied since the the Casual Agent would be existing prior the U.. our time is only universal, not before.

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space-time theorems says space and time began.-----authors hocking, ellis, not bible. these theorems are an extension of general relativity.

Yeah, your ignorance of science is pretty strong. Where are your sources? Once again, you're making the God of the Gaps Fallacy, where you simply look at unanswered questions and say "well, materialist explanations don't seem to me to work, so my God did it". Faith cannot be measured by the Scientific Method, and Gods did not create humans. Humans created Gods in fiction.

i gave you the source. your gap thing is getting old.

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you need not reveal where the evidence is hidden like maybe in a cave somewhere, but can't you just let us have a sneak preview before you announce it at a world convention or something.
okay forget the evidence. let's drop down to an idea, any ideas out there. you know just to get thing going...

[Cyberman]

Tell you what, why don't you show us how it's done; let's have a sneak preview at just one piece of evidence that "God" has access to these 'time dimensions' of yours or anything else you've been claiming. You know, just to get things going.

After that, I might be persuaded to share my evidence for the things you've asked. Come on - you show me yours and I'll show you mine.

[Angrboda]

Come on - you show me yours and I'll show you mine.

rraaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!1!

[max-greece]

How can cause proceed effect without time?

God has access to at least two dim's, one being the cosmic timeline. another (or time equivalent) before the U. would be implied since the the Casual Agent would be existing prior the U.. our time is only universal, not before.

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How do you know this?
What are the differences between the 2 time dimensions?
How do you know that the cosmic timeline works in the same way as ours does?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

stamp is used whenever your subconscious says 'do something, in a hurry'.

It's also used when "poster has failed to provide any sort of evidence to back up their assertions".

[MindForgedManacle]

And I see now that Snowtracks has given up responding to my counter-points, he's gone back to making shit up. A classic Christian and Muslim apologetic tradition if there ever one.

[Doubting Thomas]

I honestly can't believe this thread has lasted as long as it has.

[Michael Schubert]

How can cause proceed effect without time?

God has access to at least two dim's, one being the cosmic timeline. another (or time equivalent) before the U. would be implied since the the Casual Agent would be existing prior the U.. our time is only universal, not before.

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Yeah, your ignorance of science is pretty strong. Where are your sources? Once again, you're making the God of the Gaps Fallacy, where you simply look at unanswered questions and say "well, materialist explanations don't seem to me to work, so my God did it". Faith cannot be measured by the Scientific Method, and Gods did not create humans. Humans created Gods in fiction.

i gave you the source. your gap thing is getting old.
[/quote]

So is your bad grammar. Your God has no manifested material qualities, so you can't prove he/she/it/they exist(s) and uses magic to create life.

Listen to Tracie's Fallacy Model and you'll see everything that you're doing wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvftq2yst...7&index=14

[snowtracks]

How can cause proceed effect without time?

God has access to at least two dim's, one being the cosmic timeline. another (or time equivalent) before the U. would be implied since the the Casual Agent would be existing prior the U.. our time is only universal, not before.

Yeah, your ignorance of science is pretty strong. Where are your sources? Once again, you're making the God of the Gaps Fallacy, where you simply look at unanswered questions and say "well, materialist explanations don't seem to me to work, so my God did it". Faith cannot be measured by the Scientific Method, and Gods did not create humans. Humans created Gods in fiction.

i gave you the source. your gap thing is getting old.

So is your bad grammar. Your God has no manifested material qualities, so you can't prove he/she/it/they exist(s) and uses magic to create life.

Listen to Tracie's Fallacy Model and you'll see everything that you're doing wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvftq2yst...7&index=14

hey, i'm not looking at your recommended videos, you need to man up and explain them yourself.