All Hail the Second Amendment

[ManMachine]

PORTLAND, Maine (AP) - A 74-year-old Maine man was charged in the shooting deaths of two tenants inside an apartment he rented out at his home, possibly over a dispute about where they parked their cars during a snowstorm, state police said Sunday.

http://www.wxow.com/story/20468960/maine...ge-tenants

'Guns don't kill people, people kill people', I think the gun helps. - Eddie Izzard.

[Chas]

Please separate the two entirely different points - licensing of gun owners and registration of guns.

Please discuss what problems each of those purports to solve, what side effects there may be, what positive and what negative consequences could occur.

I don't see them as being separate issues and the screamingly obvious benefit is that idiots and people with criminal records can have their guns taken away.
No downside as far as I can see.

No, they are separate. Someone who does not have a license can't legally acquire or possess a firearm. To do so is a felony.

Someone who loses his/her license has to surrender the firearms. Not doing so is a felony.

We already have the laws.

[KUSA]

the screamingly obvious benefit is that idiots and people with criminal records can have their guns taken away.

[popeyespappy]

I don't see them as being separate issues and the screamingly obvious benefit is that idiots and people with criminal records can have their guns taken away.
No downside as far as I can see.

No, they are separate. Someone who does not have a license can't legally acquire or possess a firearm. To do so is a felony.

Someone who loses his/her license has to surrender the firearms. Not doing so is a felony.

We already have the laws.

Depends on the state. The only thing I have to do here to buy a handgun, rifle or shotgun from a licensed firearms dealer is pass an instant background check. The only thing I have to do to make the same purchase from a private individual is not be a felon/crazy/under a restraining order. There is no license required to purchase or own period. Registration is only required for NFA class 3 items such as machine guns, explosive devices and short barreled rifles/shotguns and that is done at the federal level only requiring one local signature. Preferably from the sheriff, but the DA or a judge can also sign the form 4.

[Chas]

No, they are separate. Someone who does not have a license can't legally acquire or possess a firearm. To do so is a felony.

Someone who loses his/her license has to surrender the firearms. Not doing so is a felony.

We already have the laws.

Depends on the state. The only thing I have to do here to buy a handgun, rifle or shotgun from a licensed firearms dealer is pass an instant background check. The only thing I have to do to make the same purchase from a private individual is not be a felon/crazy/under a restraining order. There is no license required to purchase or own period. Registration is only required for NFA class 3 items such as machine guns, explosive devices and short barreled rifles/shotguns and that is done at the federal level only requiring one local signature. Preferably from the sheriff, but the DA or a judge can also sign the form 4.

Yes, the laws vary from state to state, but it is never legal for a convicted felon to legally buy or possess a firearm.

The "instant background check" is anything but instant. It is quite complete and takes several minutes to several days.

And if he gets one (illegally), he sure as shootin' ain't gonna register it.

So a national gun registry doesn't solve any problem.

[Rahul]

My company does background searches. Those things can take weeks based on how comprehensive they are. The problem is that you have to wait on returns to come back county by county. And some backwater counties still use paper based records.

A federal check would come back in seconds. But that's not very comprehensive.

I frequently have to explain this stuff to customers.

[popeyespappy]

Yes, the laws vary from state to state, but it is never legal for a convicted felon to legally buy or possess a firearm.

Not strictly true. Once again the laws vary greatly by state, but convicted felons can have their right to bear arms restored. In some places like Minnesota a non violent convicted felon has their right to bear arms restored almost as soon as their sentence is served. Other states it is harder, but their are legal avenues available for the restoration of tthis civil right even at the federal level. That one is a bit more problematic these days as the BATAF avenue for doing that hasn't been funded for over a decade now.

The "instant background check" is anything but instant. It is quite complete and takes several minutes to several days.

While I'm sure that is true for some it has never been my experience. Typically it takes longer to enter the data from the 4473 into the NICS system than it it does to get an approval for a person with a clean record. One thing that helps is to provide your social security number on the 4473. Keeps me from being confused with anyone else that shares the same name.

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My company does background searches. Those things can take weeks based on how comprehensive they are. The problem is that you have to wait on returns to come back county by county. And some backwater counties still use paper based records.

A federal check would come back in seconds. But that's not very comprehensive.

I frequently have to explain this stuff to customers.

Agreed that NICS checks are not very comprehensive. One gun control I would be 100% behind is to make reporting to the NICS system automatic and mandatory.

[Chas]

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Yes, the laws vary from state to state, but it is never legal for a convicted felon to legally buy or possess a firearm.

Not strictly true. Once again the laws vary greatly by state, but convicted felons can have their right to bear arms restored. In some places like Minnesota a non violent convicted felon has their right to bear arms restored almost as soon as their sentence is served. Other states it is harder, but their are legal avenues available for the restoration of tthis civil right even at the federal level. That one is a bit more problematic these days as the BATAF avenue for doing that hasn't been funded for over a decade now.

The "instant background check" is anything but instant. It is quite complete and takes several minutes to several days.

While I'm sure that is true for some it has never been my experience. Typically it takes longer to enter the data from the 4473 into the NICS system than it it does to get an approval for a person with a clean record. One thing that helps is to provide your social security number on the 4473. Keeps me from being confused with anyone else that shares the same name.

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My company does background searches. Those things can take weeks based on how comprehensive they are. The problem is that you have to wait on returns to come back county by county. And some backwater counties still use paper based records.

A federal check would come back in seconds. But that's not very comprehensive.

I frequently have to explain this stuff to customers.

Agreed that NICS checks are not very comprehensive. One gun control I would be 100% behind is to make reporting to the NICS system automatic and mandatory.

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Good points. I should have been more specific than just 'felon'.

And of course the NICS check comes back quickly for someone with a clean record. Why would it not?

What do you mean by "make reporting to the NICS system automatic and mandatory"? Reporting what? By whom?

[popeyespappy]

What do you mean by "make reporting to the NICS system automatic and mandatory"? Reporting what? By whom?

NICS is a database. It is only as good as the information entered into it. Unfortunately that information isn't always updated by the multitude of jurisdictions within the US in a timely manner. I would like to see a legal requirement for every court clerk in the US to report felony convictions to a central database, doesn't have to be NICS as long as it automatically links to NICS, within 24 hours of a felony judgement, restraining order or legal finding of mental incompetence. Other situations that apply to restrictions on gun ownership such as qualified opinions on mental health need to be looked at too, but should probably be qualified with some kind of third party evaluation. I would hate to see some anti gun mental health professional report ever patient they see because they don't believe anyone should have guns...

[Chas]

What do you mean by "make reporting to the NICS system automatic and mandatory"? Reporting what? By whom?

NICS is a database. It is only as good as the information entered into it. Unfortunately that information isn't always updated by the multitude of jurisdictions within the US in a timely manner. I would like to see a legal requirement for every court clerk in the US to report felony convictions to a central database, doesn't have to be NICS as long as it automatically links to NICS, within 24 hours of a felony judgement, restraining order or legal finding of mental incompetence. Other situations that apply to restrictions on gun ownership such as qualified opinions on mental health need to be looked at too, but should probably be qualified with some kind of third party evaluation. I would hate to see some anti gun mental health professional report ever patient they see because they don't believe anyone should have guns...

That's not unreasonable, but it won't be cheap.

Currently, it does take some doing to have someone declared mentally incompetent - and it is a judicial decision. This removes many of the legal rights of that person.