Open to all-would you sacrifice your child if god told you to?

[The Valkyrie]

I do not expect you to listen, so that eliminate preaching, one preaches to those he expects to listen, I'm stating facts and it would be remiss of me to leave them out.

GC

Anybody got a massive eyeroll emoticon I can borrow? This one ( ) doesn't do the trick.

Sorry, GC. It's still preaching... and also, apparently, talking to yourself.

I don't think ANY eyeroll emote is sufficient.

hock:

[Violet]

I tend to neutralize things that threaten children. It's hard to restrain myself from kidnapping my sister's children, possibly murdering her and her new husband for deeds done, and taking care of whatever wave of animals is currently surviving there. This place is so fascinatingly morally corrupt~

Come to think... I have rather remarkable self control. I wouldn't have such a marginal familial feeling holding me back were a god threatening *MY* child.

[Esquilax]

There you go again throwing out hypothetical delusions that have nothing to do with my life, like I said I have no fear of God ever asking anyone to do such a thing because I know Him well enough to understand He want.

GC, quit being overly literal: I was asking you to employ what us normal humans call "empathy" and place yourself in Isaac's shoes.

If you were to look past the end of your biased nose, you would see that Christians do not even consider that God would ask such. These kind of things come from the ignorance of non believers.
I understand what the story says, and Issac goes through the rest of his life without any negative effects from the experience, you do not understand what trusting God means, so how do you even believe you can speak for those who do.

Great, so the story is an unrealistic mess with bad characterization. Now that we've got that established, would you accept that, for a child, being threatened with murder is a frightening act?

It's not me who has bias problems, I rely on God's truth and it has worked out just fine for many years.

Except that it's turned you into an intractable douchebag without a shred of empathy in you. If that's fine to you, then so be it.

I know it did.

Once again you abuse the word "knowledge." Knowledge is demonstrated, not merely asserted. You believe it happened, but you can't know anything you have no evidence for.

No, and it is ridiculous for you to even say so, you're getting desperate for an argument. Like I told you the answer is in scripture but it resides in many places in the OT and NT, I'm not posting something that is so long you or no one will read it, I promised myself after being told atheist were not interested in my long but necessary posts, that I wouldn't trouble myself or them. Can you understand this little quote from Abraham, "God will Provide."

So basically, you refuse to support any of your assertions? Can anyone say "rule one violation"?

Why should I care, then? You bugged me for proof earlier, and now you won't provide any? Hypocrisy, much?

The stories about Abraham's faith that God will provide and his trust that God would not go back on His promise of this son. Yes Abraham was taking Issac all the way because he knew God was faithful in His promise. If you do not think Abraham had faith that his son would not be a sacrifice, then explain why he told the servant that went with them to the mountain, we will return, not I but, we. I've not undercut anything the entire stories about faith and righteousness not sacrifice, this is apparently something you can't see.

GC

So, to be clear: you don't think that Abraham might be lying, because his son was present and to speak of returning by himself might be seen as ominous? Or that the two guys he brought with him might find what he planned to do to be somewhat messed up? Or that it's a translation error?

The whole point of the story is that Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, that he was "a god-fearing man, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me." He might have had faith that the lord would provide, but the thing that's exalted in the story as a noble act was Abraham's willingness to go all the way. If you remove that motivation from the story by saying he figured god would hook him up in the end, then everything the angel says to him at the climax of the tale makes no sense, it'd just be an elaborate game of make believe.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

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Well gee, if your dad took you as a child and was about to kill you in the name of god, that wouldn't be even a little bit frightening to you?

There you go again throwing out hypothetical delusions that have nothing to do with my life, like I said I have no fear of God ever asking anyone to do such a thing because I know Him well enough to understand He want.

I don't have proof beyond the simple logic of the scenario, because I don't think the story actually took place, but if you were willing to look beyond your presuppositions and actually think about how human beings react to things, you'd understand.

If you were to look past the end of your biased nose, you would see that Christians do not even consider that God would ask such. These kind of things come from the ignorance of non believers.
I understand what the story says, and Issac goes through the rest of his life without any negative effects from the experience, you do not understand what trusting God means, so how do you even believe you can speak for those who do.

Unfortunately, stripping away your own biases is just something you don't do, is it?

It's not me who has bias problems, I rely on God's truth and it has worked out just fine for many years.

[hide]
The only dodgy things going on here are the atheist dodging reality, to try and make up some kind of big deal out of a hypothetical, which has nothing to do with real life.

GC

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Don't you think the story actually happened?

I know it did.

What you're basically saying with your "god wouldn't say that!" dodge is that you'd fail the Abraham test if god tried it on you today. And I read before your nonsense "oh, Abraham knew what god was doing ahead of time" crap, and I'd certainly like to know where that is present in the text,

No, and it is ridiculous for you to even say so, you're getting desperate for an argument. Like I told you the answer is in scripture but it resides in many places in the OT and NT, I'm not posting something that is so long you or no one will read it, I promised myself after being told atheist were not interested in my long but necessary posts, that I wouldn't trouble myself or them. Can you understand this little quote from Abraham, "God will Provide."

but more importantly, how does the parable actually work, if that's true? The whole story is about having faith in god even to the point of sacrificing something precious to him; how does that story even function if, as you claim, Abraham had some idea of what was going on before he went ahead with it?

You're undercutting the central premise of the narrative.

[/hide]

The stories about Abraham's faith that God will provide and his trust that God would not go back on His promise of this son. Yes Abraham was taking Issac all the way because he knew God was faithful in His promise. If you do not think Abraham had faith that his son would not be a sacrifice, then explain why he told the servant that went with them to the mountain, we will return, not I but, we. I've not undercut anything the entire stories about faith and righteousness not sacrifice, this is apparently something you can't see.

GC

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But they LOVE to get in their little threats of their imaginary torment, even when they know we don't believe in that bullshit.

Of course, where he accuses us of not understanding the context of their scripture he demonstrates a distinct ignorance of what atheism means.

I know what atheism means, you do not believe there's a God or any god. However that doesn't make it true, it's no more than a belief you have.

GC

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Seriously, GC, I can't believe you still spout this bullshit. We're mostly atheists here at the... ATHEIST Forum. None of what you said above means anything to atheists. Who do you think your preaching is going to benefit?

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Oh, and to answer the OP: I have no idea. I have no kids and no plans for them in the future, so it's hard to grasp that hypothetical.

I do not expect you to listen, so that eliminate preaching, one preaches to those he expects to listen, I'm stating facts and it would be remiss of me to leave them out.

GC

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That's silly. The story in Genesis chapter 22 is that the crazy old coot lied to everyone to keep them calm while he was carrying out his murderous scheme. He had his greedy eyes on the things he would get for gutting and roasting Isaac. He tied up the kid, threw him on the wood, and was a second away from plunging a knife in his heart. Then he got the call to stop.

If he had thought that he wouldn't have to carry out his evil deed then he was just BS'ing in his preparations. That would make him a hypocrite and he should get his sorry ass tossed into the lake of fire. That guy had zero redeeming qualities.

[Rampant.A.I.]

I do not expect you to listen, so that eliminate preaching, one preaches to those he expects to listen, I'm stating facts and it would be remiss of me to leave them out.

GC

Anybody got a massive eyeroll emoticon I can borrow? This one ( :rolleyes: ) doesn't do the trick.

Sorry, GC. It's still preaching... and also, apparently, talking to yourself.

This is close.

[rexbeccarox]

Thanks RAI... that comes close to doing the trick.

[Tonus]

But to the atheist, that god is incomprehensible

Any being as preoccupied with what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom isn't that incomprehensible.

I wasn't referring to the human qualities he displays, but to the general concept of a being who built the universe with the snap of his fingers yet needs to give himself a bloody nose in order to forgive people for being just as imperfect as he designed them to be. And so on. Being an obnoxious moral busybody doesn't make god incomprehensible, it just makes him a Republican.

[Godscreated]

How come you know god better than Abraham?

Where did I say that?

GC

[Losty]

How come you know god better than Abraham?

Where did I say that?

GC

You did not. You just claimed to know god would never ask you to sacrifice your child and Abraham didn't know that so I want to know how do you know god better than Abraham did?

[Godscreated]

That's silly. The story in Genesis chapter 22 is that the crazy old coot lied to everyone to keep them calm while he was carrying out his murderous scheme. He had his greedy eyes on the things he would get for gutting and roasting Isaac. He tied up the kid, threw him on the wood, and was a second away from plunging a knife in his heart. Then he got the call to stop.

If he had thought that he wouldn't have to carry out his evil deed then he was just BS'ing in his preparations. That would make him a hypocrite and he should get his sorry ass tossed into the lake of fire. That guy had zero redeeming qualities.

The crazy coot here is you, you have no idea what the story of Abraham and Issac the promised son to carry on building the nation of Israel is about. Without the son no nation, are you starting to get the picture, the story is about faith and trust that's credited to righteousness. As for the preparation, without it no faith and as for your idea of who Abraham is God doesn't care about your opinion. You are hopelessly blind to what the scriptures teach, how sad.

GC

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Where did I say that?

GC

You did not. You just claimed to know god would never ask you to sacrifice your child and Abraham didn't know that so I want to know how do you know god better than Abraham did?

I actually have the thing Abraham didn't hind sight, God said He would never require child sacrifice.

GC