Determinism vs Free Will

[Scented Nectar]

Interesting, you're right. Although, sadly enough some christians are starting to adopt a different look on god's plan. Rather than god having a perfect plan for everyone some christians are starting to believe that there is a war going on between good and evil. As a result, everything pleasent that happens is the work of god and everything bad that happens is the work of the devil and throughout that struggle they believe they're expected to utilize their free will in order to remain in god's good grace. It's kind of annoying cuzz then even the most horrific catastrophes can be acredited to satin rather than god's negligence. (Even though he's supposed to be all powerful...)

They also can never explain why God would create a difficult to fight enemy for himself, meaning both Satan and evil in general. If he was just up for a bit of competitive sport being bored after eons of nothing to do, it would be stupid for him to put his beloved children at risk of eternal torture from the sport.

Sometimes I think God's not very bright.

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Ahh... i see. 'burger' is just short for 'hamburger'.

You are correct Blessed be the cheeseburgers... for I have the lot of them.

You are right though in that the burger can't actually be the cheese. I meant something more like how the burger and cheese both taste good either alone or separate, and so they don't really contradict each other. I prefer the cheese alone out of the 3 choices, especially if real butter is used on the bread, and a thick layer of havarti is used with spices or herbs of whatever my mood dictates in place of the usual processed cheese slice. Yum.

[Caecilian]

Personally, I'm a compatibilist re. free will/ determinism. This is the third philosophical option, libertarian free will and determinism being the other two. As the name suggests, compatibilists argue that there is no contradiction between free will and determinism.

According to compatibilism, 'free will' is not about causation at all. Its about responsibility for and ownership of actions. If I say that I did X of my own free will, then what I'm saying is that my actions were due to me (my history, beliefs, desires etc), and were authentically mine. If I do X because someone is pointing a gun at my head, then I'm doing it because of external coercion, and not because of reasons that are mine- thus not of my own free will. By contrast, if I do X because I had a bad childhood (part of my personal history), then I am doing it of my own free will.

[brza]

Personally, I'm a compatibilist re. free will/ determinism. This is the third philosophical option, libertarian free will and determinism being the other two. As the name suggests, compatibilists argue that there is no contradiction between free will and determinism.

According to compatibilism, 'free will' is not about causation at all. Its about responsibility for and ownership of actions. If I say that I did X of my own free will, then what I'm saying is that my actions were due to me (my history, beliefs, desires etc), and were authentically mine. If I do X because someone is pointing a gun at my head, then I'm doing it because of external coercion, and not because of reasons that are mine- thus not of my own free will. By contrast, if I do X because I had a bad childhood (part of my personal history), then I am doing it of my own free will.

could you not will yourself to not do as the gun holder demands? determinism, from my understanding, is about something greater than mere coercion. it's like a line of dominoes -- either it is or it isn't. the results of you doing X would all be determined by your taking that action. and really, everything you do after that could be considered the result of the action (ex. because you did X, you miss the bus which causes you to get home late which causes an argument with your partner which causes you to get to bed later than planned which gives you a bad dream which gives you bad sleep which makes you grumpy at work the next day which blahblahblah...two weeks later you stub your toe and you can trace every movement leading up to that to action X). so the gun to your head determining your action kills the idea of free will. the only form of "compatibilism" that makes sense to me is an illusion of free will that is actually all determined.

i think cause and effect can and do exist with free will. but i don't think determinism and free will coexist.

personally, i tend to lean toward the existence of free will. though i'd be able to shed so many insecurities and anxieties living a determined existence.

[Violet]

Interesting, you're right. Although, sadly enough some christians are starting to adopt a different look on god's plan. Rather than god having a perfect plan for everyone some christians are starting to believe that there is a war going on between good and evil. As a result, everything pleasent that happens is the work of god and everything bad that happens is the work of the devil and throughout that struggle they believe they're expected to utilize their free will in order to remain in god's good grace. It's kind of annoying cuzz then even the most horrific catastrophes can be acredited to satin rather than god's negligence. (Even though he's supposed to be all powerful...)

They are only starting to believe this? :S Here I thought that was their age old belief, contested time and time again by each new interpretation But then... they who fight over who owns the cottage whilst it burns down around them are fools

Few interpretations of christianity do I find even slightly worthy of respect... but there may be (are?) a few 'sensible' ones

Ah, I see what you're getting at. So, do you think humans are capable of being truly atheist?

As capable as anything? Each of us is born with no knowledge or understanding of theism, hence we are all born atheist. I consider myself to be human, and I am an atheist.... therefore at least one human is an atheist I also believe my fellow forum goers are human (though I do have my reservations about Dotard, as I believe he might well be God, though I see no real reason to believe this of yet), and many of them say they are atheists and act as such... ergo: I believe that most of the apparent humans on this forum are atheists Does that answer your question? ^_^

Yes, true enough. In that case I see it as a harmful potential.

That is certainly a possibility... but one should never take what is possible to be what is by necessity true ^_<

Interesting. So am I correct in deducing that you're the person you want to be, but you're not neccessarily content with how that person is existing?

I am the person I wish to be... but I do not exist in the proper platform for my person. >_< If I could supplant my consciousness into a platform of an android (one that appears to be a female human, and indeed feels no differently to either me or anyone near me): I would do so instantly. Bonus points if I can still feel pain and pleasure >_^

Of course... a nearly perfectly digitized 'clone' of me would also work... and would give me either the opportunity to be in two places at once, or to choose the form of my existence that I prefer. I'm rather eccentric, no? ^_^

Masochists are a strange anomoly. I wonder how somebody's mind develops that way.

Not so anomalous... it's rather common, to my knowledge... to varying degrees of course. I could make the same comment about the color blue... for it is a strange color. I wonder why it appears to us as it does... why not indeed see it like some other species? ^_<

That a thing happens implies there was a method by which it happens... I don't disagree with understanding how it happens: I disagree with declaring it to be an anomaly. There are no anomalies... only incomplete/incorrect rules, which are broken by the existence of such 'anomalies'. Of course... everything might be supposed to just be chaotic.

lol. Don't worry, I'm too empathetic too kill people. (Plus, not the most physically fit of specimens).

I think I'm rather empathetic... but I would still kill people if I felt the circumstances suited it... myself included One need not be physically fit to kill another... death is rather easy to bring to life in an amusingly diverse number of ways... amusing, for we live through so many 'close calls' each day... where the slightest difference could have brought our death. It's almost enough to make one think there is some sort of benevolent creator out there >_^ Of course... then we realize that many do not avoid these small things, and are killed or maimed anyway ^_^

Isn't life fun? ^_^

Not really. The nice thing about believing in determinism is that nothing can really be silly or senseless, because one believes that there's a reason for everything that happens.

Everything is silly, senseless, absurd, wacky, chaotic, and very hungry. Not even determinists necessarily believe there is a reason for everything that happens... rather that events are determined by what comes prior. Reasons are mental constructs... and what has the mind to do with the movements of the most distant stars? For all we can awaredly accurately prove: there is no order whatsoever, and everything that has ever happened has been a massive coincidence. While things appear to happen according to understood patterns... we see no reason why things should not do so. Hence: most of us (myself included) believe there is a sense of order about the universe... perhaps it is the kind that is created eventually through chaos... or perhaps it is one from a divine creator: I see little reason to believe either is the truth... but what remains is existence, and that's something ^_^

To summarize: even if there was a reason for everything: it isn't necessarily a 'rational' reason >_^

Ah, okay. That's the problem with reading shit over the internet. Trying to discern context is a bitch. Come to think of it, it does make sense to give 2 cents to somebody that'll use it for the sake of greater benefit. No sense in wasting 2 cents on somebody who's going to throw it over their shoulder in hopes that supernatural powers will assist them.

I was going to put a smilie after it, but I ran out of them ^_^ It does indeed make sense to give 2 cents and get 1000 dollars back in return ^_< And yes, he really could do that, as I understand the process. >_^

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According to compatibilism, 'free will' is not about causation at all. Its about responsibility for and ownership of actions. If I say that I did X of my own free will, then what I'm saying is that my actions were due to me (my history, beliefs, desires etc), and were authentically mine. If I do X because someone is pointing a gun at my head, then I'm doing it because of external coercion, and not because of reasons that are mine- thus not of my own free will. By contrast, if I do X because I had a bad childhood (part of my personal history), then I am doing it of my own free will.

It was your 'will' that failed, in the face of coercion. Others would have died... or perhaps the man was bluffing. Others still might have killed him with their own gun. Others would have sat there calmly, taking no notice. Still another might have had external help.

Isn't existence strange, like that?

[Scented Nectar]

Isn't free will, meaning the ability to choose, just one of the many factors that can determine an outcome? Just like rain being determined by water weight in the clouds, which is determined by the prior evaporation of that water from a dew drop which was determined by the plant tissues excreting it, etc, so called free will is determined by things like how each choice in the decision will affect the decider (even to the gun to the head point, but also lesser things like 'that sounds boring so I'm not going to do it'), and that is decided by other things, both physical and mental (personality related), which in turn is determined by a mix (in my opinion) of genes and experience.

Is any will free of all determining sources? I'm not suggesting an extreme like intent or predetermination or higher purpose of course, just that everything that we know and do can be shown to be determined or influenced to some extent by other things and events.

[Violet]

Isn't free will, meaning the ability to choose, just one of the many factors that can determine an outcome?

And yet, where is that ability to choose, I wonder? Choice in an illusion... for there is only one outcome for the one who believes they have made a choice. You could replay that 'choice' infinitely... and the result is no different the first time than it is the 8 septillionth. Losing 'choice', more than any other facet of 'free will' I am aware of, is perhaps the most detrimental to the idea.

Just like rain being determined by water weight in the clouds, which is determined by the prior evaporation of that water from a dew drop which was determined by the plant tissues excreting it, etc, so called free will is determined by things like how each choice in the decision will affect the decider (even to the gun to the head point, but also lesser things like 'that sounds boring so I'm not going to do it'), and that is decided by other things, both physical and mental (personality related), which in turn is determined by a mix (in my opinion) of genes and experience.

Free will is the idea that the will is independent of all other factors. I see no reason for this to be the case, and indeed there is neurological evidence now that it is indeed not the case.

Is any will free of all determining sources?

Nope

I'm not suggesting an extreme like intent or predetermination or higher purpose of course, just that everything that we know and do can be shown to be determined or influenced to some extent by other things and events.

Actually... an intriguing thing about determinism is how well it supports the idea of fate/script/design. The only two understandings I am aware of in which this is not true, is order arising from chaos... or a natural order that has always been.

If determinism is correct (and I see no reason why it would not be)... it would mean that given sufficiently advanced mathematics/technology: every event that will ever be, is, and has ever been (within this universe, though some events may in fact modify what is prior/after so considerably it become impossible to now what came before)... becomes calculable and knowable. I think that is somewhat interesting, at the least

[JoeNoshow]

I am the person I wish to be... but I do not exist in the proper platform for my person. >_< If I could supplant my consciousness into a platform of an android (one that appears to be a female human, and indeed feels no differently to either me or anyone near me): I would do so instantly. Bonus points if I can still feel pain and pleasure >_^

Of course... a nearly perfectly digitized 'clone' of me would also work... and would give me either the opportunity to be in two places at once, or to choose the form of my existence that I prefer. I'm rather eccentric, no? ^_^

So, I take it platform is in reference to your body? Being able to transfer consciousness into a clone would be crazy. Could live forever by having tons of clones scattered about. I dunno if we'll ever get robots to be that advanced, but it certainlty would be neat if we did.

Masochists are a strange anomoly. I wonder how somebody's mind develops that way.

Not so anomalous... it's rather common, to my knowledge... to varying degrees of course. I could make the same comment about the color blue... for it is a strange color. I wonder why it appears to us as it does... why not indeed see it like some other species? ^_<

That a thing happens implies there was a method by which it happens... I don't disagree with understanding how it happens: I disagree with declaring it to be an anomaly. There are no anomalies... only incomplete/incorrect rules, which are broken by the existence of such 'anomalies'. Of course... everything might be supposed to just be chaotic.

I was simply referring to the fact that they aren't overly common, or at least, don't commonly express themselves. I dunno about everything being chaotic. Certainly seems that way from time to time.

lol. Don't worry, I'm too empathetic too kill people. (Plus, not the most physically fit of specimens).

I think I'm rather empathetic... but I would still kill people if I felt the circumstances suited it... myself included One need not be physically fit to kill another... death is rather easy to bring to life in an amusingly diverse number of ways... amusing, for we live through so many 'close calls' each day... where the slightest difference could have brought our death. It's almost enough to make one think there is some sort of benevolent creator out there >_^ Of course... then we realize that many do not avoid these small things, and are killed or maimed anyway ^_^

Isn't life fun? ^_^

Very fun. Although I do all my killing and maiming in video games. That way the towns people don't hunt me down. It is quite fascinating to think about the chain of causes that keep us alive on a day to day basis. It's even more baffling to think about the chain of causes leading up to our birth... if just one couple hadn't met up during the thousands of years of human procreation, we wouldn't be here. Or, if our parents hadn't screwed at exactly the right time the required sperm and egg to create us never would have met up and just like that we never would've been.

Lucky us

Everything is silly, senseless, absurd, wacky, chaotic, and very hungry. Not even determinists necessarily believe there is a reason for everything that happens... rather that events are determined by what comes prior. Reasons are mental constructs... and what has the mind to do with the movements of the most distant stars? For all we can awaredly accurately prove: there is no order whatsoever, and everything that has ever happened has been a massive coincidence. While things appear to happen according to understood patterns... we see no reason why things should not do so. Hence: most of us (myself included) believe there is a sense of order about the universe... perhaps it is the kind that is created eventually through chaos... or perhaps it is one from a divine creator: I see little reason to believe either is the truth... but what remains is existence, and that's something ^_^

To summarize: even if there was a reason for everything: it isn't necessarily a 'rational' reason >_^

I don't really see how anything can be stupid or senseless when there is cause and effect. Why do we call people crazy? Because we don't understand them. Why do we call people stupid? Because we don't understand them. Why does life seem chaotic? Because we don't understand it.

If an isolated cause and effect makes no sense, (ex. You kill somebody simply because they said Hi), it's only senseless because one isn't aware of the chain of causes leading up to that particular cause and effect.

I suppose that I have faith in the idea that life would make sense if we fully understood it. However, omniscience isn't particularily easy to attain.

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Isn't free will, meaning the ability to choose, just one of the many factors that can determine an outcome? Just like rain being determined by water weight in the clouds, which is determined by the prior evaporation of that water from a dew drop which was determined by the plant tissues excreting it, etc, so called free will is determined by things like how each choice in the decision will affect the decider (even to the gun to the head point, but also lesser things like 'that sounds boring so I'm not going to do it'), and that is decided by other things, both physical and mental (personality related), which in turn is determined by a mix (in my opinion) of genes and experience.

Is any will free of all determining sources? I'm not suggesting an extreme like intent or predetermination or higher purpose of course, just that everything that we know and do can be shown to be determined or influenced to some extent by other things and events.

I suppose it depends on how one percieves free will. I look at free will as being like a sphere. The sphere is free to move in any direction it wants, but it's not going to move off of free will alone. There must be a cause for the sphere to move.

Sometimes though I get the impression that people see free will as some magic source of power that allows one to go against all the predetermining factors such as genetics, personality, enviorment and influences. (I like how Saerule put it, "Free will is the idea that the will is independent of all other factors.") People don't act without a motive and it has to be a motive that's stronger than the motives to do other things. We're in control, but our control is controled, which means that we're not really in control. lol.

[Violet]

So, I take it platform is in reference to your body? Being able to transfer consciousness into a clone would be crazy. Could live forever by having tons of clones scattered about. I dunno if we'll ever get robots to be that advanced, but it certainlty would be neat if we did.

Hardly my intent by doing so I view my body much like you might view a motor vehicle... though my concern for its health is significantly greater, of course

I was simply referring to the fact that they aren't overly common, or at least, don't commonly express themselves. I dunno about everything being chaotic. Certainly seems that way from time to time.

Much more common than you seem to think My statement about chaos was a joke ^_^

Very fun. Although I do all my killing and maiming in video games. That way the towns people don't hunt me down. It is quite fascinating to think about the chain of causes that keep us alive on a day to day basis. It's even more baffling to think about the chain of causes leading up to our birth... if just one couple hadn't met up during the thousands of years of human procreation, we wouldn't be here. Or, if our parents hadn't screwed at exactly the right time the required sperm and egg to create us never would have met up and just like that we never would've been.

Lucky us

You call this lucky?! ^_<

Of course... all of those things leading up to our births happened... and couldn't have done otherwise Determinism frees us from a great deal of regret, I do think

pquote]I don't really see how anything can be stupid or senseless when there is cause and effect. Why do we call people crazy? Because we don't understand them. Why do we call people stupid? Because we don't understand them. Why does life seem chaotic? Because we don't understand it.[/quote]

Evidently you haven't met L'Idiot of the village. ^_< We call people crazy because they are "in a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction; seriously mentally ill". Life seems chaotic because it is

If an isolated cause and effect makes no sense, (ex. You kill somebody simply because they said Hi), it's only senseless because one isn't aware of the chain of causes leading up to that particular cause and effect.

No... i'm pretty sure i killed him for saying 'hi'.

I suppose that I have faith in the idea that life would make sense if we fully understood it. However, omniscience isn't particularily easy to attain.

Methinks you should question that faith >_^

[JoeNoshow]

You call this lucky?! ^_<

Of course... all of those things leading up to our births happened... and couldn't have done otherwise Determinism frees us from a great deal of regret, I do think

I was joking about the lucky thing.

Evidently you haven't met L'Idiot of the village. ^_< We call people crazy because they are "in a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction; seriously mentally ill". Life seems chaotic because it is

Seems chaotic, but that doesn't mean that life is chaotic.

If an isolated cause and effect makes no sense, (ex. You kill somebody simply because they said Hi), it's only senseless because one isn't aware of the chain of causes leading up to that particular cause and effect.

No... i'm pretty sure i killed him for saying 'hi'.

Yes, but why did 'Hi' trigger a hostile response? What was the cause for that reponse? I believe that's where the rationality lies.

I suppose that I have faith in the idea that life would make sense if we fully understood it. However, omniscience isn't particularily easy to attain.

Methinks you should question that faith >_^

I could, but it pleases me to believe so. Yes, things do seem senseless at times, but until we know everything we can't determine that things are indeed senseless.

[Violet]

I was joking about the lucky thing.

Hence my ">_^" >_^

Seems chaotic, but that doesn't mean that life is chaotic.

Perhaps not... though why would it be otherwise? ^_^

Yes, but why did 'Hi' trigger a hostile response? What was the cause for that reponse? I believe that's where the rationality lies.

'Hi' triggers a "hostile" response in my character, because how she says "hi" is with a sword through the person's chest... unless they deflect it. THis man did not, ergo: this man died.

I am hardly one to pin 'blame', 'fault', or 'responsibility' upon any one thing... to do so does the other actors in the play a disservice

I could, but it pleases me to believe so. Yes, things do seem senseless at times, but until we know everything we can't determine that things are indeed senseless.

Indeed. Welcome to the forum