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The bible is a holy, sacred book used for attaining wisdom and finding moral ground work.
Right?
Point one: Just how consistent is god's moral groundwork if it changes throughout the times as culture changes? It makes sense to think that the bible was written by the men of the time and therefore the teachings of the bible progressed from highly flawed morals to lesser flawed morals. However, the bible was not written by the men of the time. IT was written by prophets who were listening to god. Which means that god was delieving piss poor laws to everyone. I'm not going to believe that an all powerful, all loving being would hand down primitive morals and laws to people.
Point two: God's word is perfect, because god is perfect. "Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Therefore, God's word is perfect.
Now, I'm no omnipotent being, so my perception of perfect is hardly one to go by, but can you honestly tell me that you believe the bible is perfect?
Come my brethren and feast upon one another! (S)He who triumps and has eaten us all will be blessed with the knowledge of all those with whom (s)he has consumed!
(May 14, 2010 at 8:21 am)John_S3V Wrote: However, the bible was not written by the men of the time. IT was written by prophets who were listening to god.
Prophets are still human men...that means they are still prone to being as faiiable as any other man...and prone to misunderstanding God's Word.
Quote:Therefore, God's word is perfect.
Right; and the parts of the Bible that are truly in line with that Word are also perfect.
Quote:Now, I'm no omnipotent being, so my perception of perfect is hardly one to go by, but can you honestly tell me that you believe the bible is perfect?
(May 14, 2010 at 7:15 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You must end a lot of conversations then Min
Yes....usually by writing " well, YOUR fucking bible says..........................................."
And I'd never hear from them again.
Back at the EvilBible forum I was famous for a routine whenever some fundie would show up and claim that the site was taking bible atrocities "out of context." I would select one of the many atrocities contained in the big book of Holy Horrors, find the appropriate citation from Bible Gateway or some other mainstream source, quote it, link to it and invite that particular fundie to "put it in any "context" they wished and then explain how "good" that made his god look.
(May 14, 2010 at 8:21 am)John_S3V Wrote: However, the bible was not written by the men of the time. IT was written by prophets who were listening to god.
Prophets are still human men...that means they are still prone to being as faiiable as any other man...and prone to misunderstanding God's Word.
Quote:Therefore, God's word is perfect.
Right; and the parts of the Bible that are truly in line with that Word are also perfect.
Quote:Now, I'm no omnipotent being, so my perception of perfect is hardly one to go by, but can you honestly tell me that you believe the bible is perfect?
No.
Alright, I see what you're getting at. The prophets/diciples who wrote the bible could've tarnished it by lying or failing to write things accurately due to misinterpretation. After all, the prophets were mere men along with the people who then had to interprete what the prophet men were saying and then had to translate what they were saying into a language the general population would understand. Therefore, it's our job to discern which texts in the bible are truly god's word and which aren't.... wait a minute.
There's a problem with this. *ponders* If we start to judge for ourselves which texts from the bible are truly god's words then the bible is no longer any more special then any other book, because then one is basically choosing to believe only what he wants or deems accurate to believe.
If one is willing to acknowledge that the prophets/deciples did indeed lie or miscontrue the facts then that means that the whole bible could be wrong. What if that first prophet who that wrote the story of creation was lying? Can we prove that the man who spoke of creation all those years ago wasn't delusional? Can we prove whether or not the man all those years ago was making up stories about omnipotent beings so he could manipulate the masses?
Come my brethren and feast upon one another! (S)He who triumps and has eaten us all will be blessed with the knowledge of all those with whom (s)he has consumed!
John, no we can't prove that. In fact you could burn every holy book ever made and every written account of any God and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to God, or me for that matter. I think it's a usefull tool in the history of understanding more about God. True understanding comes from experience though, regardless of the subject. In the case of religion; without it at least people would have no one to blame but each other. As far as not knowing about a God without religion .. the Bible covers that too...
Romans 2:14-15 (New Living Translation)
14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Quote:The prophets/diciples who wrote the bible could've tarnished it by lying or failing to write things accurately due to misinterpretation.
Why assume that people who heard voices back then were any saner than people who hear voices now. Wouldn't it be funny if all of this religious horseshit was nothing more than some psycho's delusion?
May 14, 2010 at 2:14 pm (This post was last modified: May 14, 2010 at 2:26 pm by John_S3V.)
(May 14, 2010 at 12:21 pm)tackattack Wrote: John, no we can't prove that. In fact you could burn every holy book ever made and every written account of any God and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to God, or me for that matter. I think it's a usefull tool in the history of understanding more about God. True understanding comes from experience though, regardless of the subject. In the case of religion; without it at least people would have no one to blame but each other.
How can you seperate god from the bible? As soon as you start saying that the bible may be wrong about some things you have to admit that based on the lack of evidence to support pretty well anything in the bible that it could very well be wrong about everything. You can't say in one sentence that, "you could burn every holy book ever made and every written account of any God and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to God" and then say you "think it's a usefull tool in the history of understanding more about God." Why not? Because the god you worship is the god in the bible. Without the bible you would not believe in YHWH. I can imagine you believing in 'a god'. I'm sure you'd acredit him with creating everything, being loving and looking out for you, but you certainly wouldn't acredit to him even half the stuff that goes on in the bible.
If you tell me that you believe in god or a god, but not the christian god, I'm totally kewl with that, I mean, who's going to prove you wrong? They can't. But, you start telling me about YHWH from the Holy Bible and it's like, wait a minute, now that I have an issue with because the god from the holy bible is a dipshit and his book is full of contradictions and genocide.
Yes, experience is understanding. It's a common, well known thing called 'Wisdom'. It doesn't require belief in gods or sacred books. In some cases, wisdom is a very personal thing and varies greatly from person to person.
Quote:As far as not knowing about a God without religion .. the Bible covers that too...
Romans 2:14-15 (New Living Translation)
14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
The problem with that is that people do a lot of things instinctly and I don't see how instinct or mental programming proves god. Yes, many people do unto others as they would want done to them, but that's called 'Empathy'. There's nothing spiritual about empathy. It appears that humans didn't have a whole lot of empathy a few thousand years ago. But, for the sake of sustaining the speices, empathy started to flourish.
What humans like to poetically call, 'following their heart', is actually a matter of following their brains and genetic makeup. If you construct some one without empathy you have a psychopath. A psychopath doesn't have remorse for doing bad things. Poetically speaking, his heart tells him to kill people and he likes that. Some people are born perfectly normal, but their enviroment conditions them to become sociopaths in which case they've learned to become apathic for the sake of survival, because pity and empathy are weaknesses in an enviorment full of people without it who're trying to exploit you at every turn.
It's not like I'm making up hypothetical stuff. This people are real. Rapists usually enjoy raping, serial killers often enjoy killing and kleptomaniacs enjoy stealing. Who am I to tell these people that they're on the path to moral decay when they've either been conditioned or born with unorthodox desires? I don't even understand how these people could exist if the biblical god was real. Course, I'm not saying we shouldn't lock these people up. They're infringing on people's happiness and the majority of people don't want killers and rapists running around. Regardless, as far as I'm concerned these people are proof that there's no such thing as 'inner morality' or a 'core knowledge of right and wrong'. These people have a completely different take on ethics all together.
Come my brethren and feast upon one another! (S)He who triumps and has eaten us all will be blessed with the knowledge of all those with whom (s)he has consumed!
(May 14, 2010 at 2:14 pm)John_S3V Wrote: How can you seperate god from the bible?
Because they aren't one in the same. The Bible is a book written by men about God.
Quote:As soon as you start saying that the bible may be wrong about some things you have to admit that based on the lack of evidence to support pretty well anything in the bible that it could very well be wrong about everything.
It is, in fact, wrong about some things. But from a Christian's perspective, this is just human falliability. Observing God in the real world reveals which of the Bible's doctrines are right and which are wrong.
Quote:You can't say in one sentence that, "you could burn every holy book ever made and every written account of any God and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to God" and then say you "think it's a usefull tool in the history of understanding more about God." Why not? Because the god you worship is the god in the bible. Without the bible you would not believe in YHWH.
The God tack and I worship is the God written about in the Bible, not the God from the Bible.
Quote:I can imagine you believing in 'a god'. I'm sure you'd acredit him with creating everything, being loving and looking out for you, but you certainly wouldn't acredit to him even half the stuff that goes on in the bible.
Partially true. I'd say some of the things within the Bible can be logically expected of God, but that does not mean that He has actually carried them out.
Quote:But, you start telling me about YHWH from the Holy Bible and it's like, wait a minute, now that I have an issue with because the god from the holy bible is a dipshit and his book is full of contradictions and genocide.
As I said before; the Bible is about God, God is not 'from' the Bible. We believe in the God which the Bible is about, but we also believe that the Bble is sometimes innaccurate in describing Him.
Quote:Yes, experience is understanding. It's a common, well known thing called 'Wisdom'. It doesn't require belief in gods or sacred books. In some cases, wisdom is a very personal thing and varies greatly from person to person.
I agree with you on this, for the most part.
Quote:The problem with that is that people do a lot of things instinctly and I don't see how instinct or mental programming proves god.
It doesn't 'prove' God, except in the subjective sense. Belief in the Holy Spirit, and a soul for that matter, explains subjectively to a person where, how, and why they are able to do and feel certain things they are able to.
Quote:Yes, many people do unto others as they would want done to them, but that's called 'Empathy'. There's nothing spiritual about empathy. It appears that humans didn't have a whole lot of empathy a few thousand years ago. But, for the sake of sustaining the speices, empathy started to flourish.
And the Christian belief is that empathy is something gifted to us by God.
Quote:What humans like to poetically call, 'following their heart', is actually a matter of following their brains and genetic makeup.
I would argue that the guiding force of the brain and that genetic makeup is the soul, the spirit.
Quote:If you construct some one without empathy you have a psychopath. A psychopath doesn't have remorse for doing bad things. Poetically speaking, his heart tells him to kill people and he likes that.
I couter that I do not, personally, believe in such people. Not as 'people', at least.
Quote:It's not like I'm making up hypothetical stuff. This people are real. Rapists usually enjoy raping, serial killers often enjoy killing and kleptomaniacs enjoy stealing.
Yes, but look at the usual mental state of such people; they are compulsive, emotionally unhealthy, and generally unwell in the head. This is very telling of the affect such behavior has on the human psyche.
Quote:Who am I to tell these people that they're on the path to moral decay when they've either been conditioned or born with unorthodox desires?
Because something tells you inside that what they are doing is 'wrong', right? That's the best possible reason I can think of for locking them away. You see the affect their behavior has on themselves and others, ad you want to help them put an end to their behavior by feeling better or in some way putting a stop to it.
Quote:I don't even understand how these people could exist if the biblical god was real. Course, I'm not saying we shouldn't lock these people up. They're infringing on people's happiness and the majority of people don't want killers and rapists running around. Regardless, as far as I'm concerned these people are proof that there's no such thing as 'inner morality' or a 'core knowledge of right and wrong'. These people have a completely different take on ethics all together.
And again; look at the affect their life-styles has on their state of mind and on other's well-being, as well. People react to these things because of the inner morality and core knowledge of right and wrong. At least, that is my belief.
As for your response that was actually directed at me, I believe I've probably answered your questions here.
Here is one for you Watson straight out of your so called holy book itself regarding truth and fallacy.
Exodus 31:1-3
1.And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2.See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
3.And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
According to this text god and his spirit is the source of all knowledge and Jesus reinforced this when he said:
John 14:26
26.But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
If this is the case, then how is it that so many so called followers of Christ are at odds with each other? If they all are supposedly listening to the same spirit of god then why do they not agree as to the interpretation of scriptures? I know you might say that they are being led astray by false spirits etc. but if that is true then who is to determine if those spirits are false? I know you might say by their fruits you will know them but there are many christian organizations doing good deeds as well.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition
Man is falliable and prone to misinterpretation of the world around him; along with having different religions and different sects within those religions, we have atheists, republicans, democrats, communists, socialists, nazis, etc., etc. The misinterpretation of the world is not the world's fault, it is the interpretor's; man.
