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True but man does not claim to have a "holy spirit" guiding them to all truth and understanding. You have done nothing more than avoid my question and have not answered it from a Christian standpoint. Of course we are fallible but the holy spirit is not and is responsible for guiding you to truths of all matters, if you ask me he is doing a piss poor job of it.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition
He is only doing a 'piss poor job' of it where He is ignored; this is a Christian standpoint. The Holy Spirit gives guidance, and man has the choice whether to follow or not to follow. Because man is falliable, he does not always understand or interpret correctly what the Holy Spirit is teaching, and thus you end up wit hdifferent belief systems and ideals. The sects are created in this way, but in the eyes of God, they are all one whole, simply divided for no real reason. Humans all have their own individual perceptions, and that is why division occurs throughout the world on all matters, not just religious ones.
(May 14, 2010 at 8:21 am)John_S3V Wrote: Therefore, God's word is perfect.
Right; and the parts of the Bible that are truly in line with that Word are also perfect.
Since when were you dubbed the authority on the Bible? Its own teachings contradicts your interpretations of it:
Quote:Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
You should create your own website called "cherrypickers.org" where theists and apologists can unite to Cut & Paste any offending-by-modern-standards extracts from an online editable version of Biblical scriptures.
(May 15, 2010 at 2:20 am)Watson Wrote: It's a Christian view, Min. Just like 'God does not exist' is an atheistic one.
Thank you Watson for demonstrating yet again, by stupidly oversimplifying the position, that you still don't quite understand what atheism actually means; it doesn't just mean the rejection of theistic beliefs regarding deities. Atheism in the broadest sense is simply the absence of belief in god(s). A lack of belief in god(s) is NOT the same view as asserting "God does not exist".
Watson wrote: "He is only doing a 'piss poor job' of it where He is ignored; this is a Christian standpoint. The Holy Spirit gives guidance, and man has the choice whether to follow or not to follow."
My dear Watson, you certainly are good at the art of sticking your foot in your own mouth. The above quote states that only those that ignore the spirit end up getting misguided in the faith. But this makes no sense, because I am pretty sure that all of those seekers of the biblical god and his so called truths do so with all their hearts. But you in essence are saying that they are all ignoring the spirit when in fact many of them are fervently seeking the spirit and its guidance.
So, the will to follow the spirit is there and just brings this discussion back to where it started. If that is the case then the holy spirit is doing a piss poor job of guiding the church.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition
May 16, 2010 at 3:14 am (This post was last modified: May 16, 2010 at 3:16 am by tackattack.)
(May 15, 2010 at 12:42 pm)chatpilot Wrote:
Watson wrote: "He is only doing a 'piss poor job' of it where He is ignored; this is a Christian standpoint. The Holy Spirit gives guidance, and man has the choice whether to follow or not to follow."
My dear Watson, you certainly are good at the art of sticking your foot in your own mouth. The above quote states that only those that ignore the spirit end up getting misguided in the faith. But this makes no sense, because I am pretty sure that all of those seekers of the biblical god and his so called truths do so with all their hearts. But you in essence are saying that they are all ignoring the spirit when in fact many of them are fervently seeking the spirit and its guidance.
So, the will to follow the spirit is there and just brings this discussion back to where it started. If that is the case then the holy spirit is doing a piss poor job of guiding the church.
I know this wasn't directed at me, but if no one minds my opinion: seeking the spirit and hearing the spirit are two completely separate things. It's apparent by scripture that the spirit can leave you due to disobedience, or willfully ignoring God's plan. I seek 1 million dolars, but that doesn't mean I have it, or if I did that I could keep it. The scripture also tells us to test the spirits, and not just accept them blindly. Perhaps they were seeking the spirit so badly, they made up their own answers and "forgot" to test the spirit's validity.
I thought I already wrote a response to this one.. guess my internet got jacked up
(May 14, 2010 at 2:14 pm)John_S3V Wrote:
(May 14, 2010 at 12:21 pm)tackattack Wrote: John, no we can't prove that. In fact you could burn every holy book ever made and every written account of any God and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to God, or me for that matter. I think it's a usefull tool in the history of understanding more about God. True understanding comes from experience though, regardless of the subject. In the case of religion; without it at least people would have no one to blame but each other.
How can you seperate god from the bible? As soon as you start saying that the bible may be wrong about some things you have to admit that based on the lack of evidence to support pretty well anything in the bible that it could very well be wrong about everything. You can't say in one sentence that, "you could burn every holy book ever made and every written account of any God and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to God" and then say you "think it's a usefull tool in the history of understanding more about God." Why not? Because the god you worship is the god in the bible. Without the bible you would not believe in YHWH. I can imagine you believing in 'a god'. I'm sure you'd acredit him with creating everything, being loving and looking out for you, but you certainly wouldn't acredit to him even half the stuff that goes on in the bible.
If you tell me that you believe in god or a god, but not the christian god, I'm totally kewl with that, I mean, who's going to prove you wrong? They can't. But, you start telling me about YHWH from the Holy Bible and it's like, wait a minute, now that I have an issue with because the god from the holy bible is a dipshit and his book is full of contradictions and genocide.
Yes, experience is understanding. It's a common, well known thing called 'Wisdom'. It doesn't require belief in gods or sacred books. In some cases, wisdom is a very personal thing and varies greatly from person to person.
True, without the Bible I would have no knowledge of Jesus, and therefore wouldn't be a Christian. I see different Holy books, as different ways to explain man's view of God. Just like 5 witness all tell differering accounts of an accident scene. Some aren't even close, some are similar. I think vengance and contradiction are man made concepts and reading in context and seeing truth in the Bible, requires attempting to factor out the human-like variables that seem out of place and not picking out one verse here and one verse there. It's about comprehensive reading, like we did in literature class in HS.
Quote:
Quote:As far as not knowing about a God without religion .. the Bible covers that too...Romans 2:14-15 (New Living Translation) 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
The problem with that is that people do a lot of things instinctly and I don't see how instinct or mental programming proves god. Yes, many people do unto others as they would want done to them, but that's called 'Empathy'. There's nothing spiritual about empathy. It appears that humans didn't have a whole lot of empathy a few thousand years ago. But, for the sake of sustaining the speices, empathy started to flourish.
What humans like to poetically call, 'following their heart', is actually a matter of following their brains and genetic makeup. If you construct some one without empathy you have a psychopath. A psychopath doesn't have remorse for doing bad things. Poetically speaking, his heart tells him to kill people and he likes that. Some people are born perfectly normal, but their enviroment conditions them to become sociopaths in which case they've learned to become apathic for the sake of survival, because pity and empathy are weaknesses in an enviorment full of people without it who're trying to exploit you at every turn.
It's not like I'm making up hypothetical stuff. This people are real. Rapists usually enjoy raping, serial killers often enjoy killing and kleptomaniacs enjoy stealing. Who am I to tell these people that they're on the path to moral decay when they've either been conditioned or born with unorthodox desires? I don't even understand how these people could exist if the biblical god was real. Course, I'm not saying we shouldn't lock these people up. They're infringing on people's happiness and the majority of people don't want killers and rapists running around. Regardless, as far as I'm concerned these people are proof that there's no such thing as 'inner morality' or a 'core knowledge of right and wrong'. These people have a completely different take on ethics all together.
Relax I believe you. I didn't say that empathy did prove God's existence. I'm aware of some research into mental disorders. Even in the most Schizophrenic delusional state, I've not seen a study where someone without want or need of social morality wasn't doing what they thought was right at the time, as opposed to what would be wrong for them. It is the our assigned values and the duality of causation that produces the right and wrong we use daily. A sociopath may not feel what we think is wrong has any bearing on them, but inwardly how can you even make a choice unless there are options which you value one more than others.
Sorry if I was interrupting anyone's conversation. [/end nose sticking]
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
May 16, 2010 at 1:02 pm (This post was last modified: May 16, 2010 at 1:10 pm by John_S3V.)
Quote:As soon as you start saying that the bible may be wrong about some things you have to admit that based on the lack of evidence to support pretty well anything in the bible that it could very well be wrong about everything.
It is, in fact, wrong about some things. But from a Christian's perspective, this is just human falliability. Observing God in the real world reveals which of the Bible's doctrines are right and which are wrong.
You seem to feel that you have the authority to observe when and where god shows up in the real world and can then decide which biblical teachings are correct based on your own judgement. Bravo, you're no different than any other human trying to discern right from wrong. And you know what, I don't blame you a bit. I tried discerning right from wrong, without the bible of course, for a long time and it's actually quite difficult and in my opinion impossible. I hope one day you'll realize though that right and wrong is subjective and that there is no god to back up what you personally believe.
Perhaps, if you reach that point, you'll recognize that all humans are seeking out happiness and that no man is truly wrong nor evil. There are simply times when men infringe on your happiness in the pursuit of their own and times wen men either compliment or have no effect on the pursuit of your happiness when in pursuit of their own. And, as everybody knows, you can't make everybody happy. Therefore, at times, you yourself have infringed on people's happiness in pursuit of your own. That's likely happened many times on this forum. It doesn't make you a bad person, it simply makes you human like the rest of us. Of course, life is much more satisfying once you surround yourself with people that compliment your pursuit of happiness. But, life doesn't always work out idealistically.
Quote:You can't say in one sentence that, "you could burn every holy book ever made and every written account of any God and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to God" and then say you "think it's a usefull tool in the history of understanding more about God." Why not? Because the god you worship is the god in the bible. Without the bible you would not believe in YHWH.
The God tack and I worship is the God written about in the Bible, not the God from the Bible.
The god you worship is not the god written about in the bible, because you do not believe that the god written about in the bible is the god who told people to stone their rebellious sons. The god that the bible is written about is not your god. Your god consists of elements from the bible's god, YHWH that were selected by you which makes your god a subjective, personal god.
Quote:The problem with that is that people do a lot of things instinctly and I don't see how instinct or mental programming proves god.
It doesn't 'prove' God, except in the subjective sense. Belief in the Holy Spirit, and a soul for that matter, explains subjectively to a person where, how, and why they are able to do and feel certain things they are able to.
Your subjective senses are of no use to me in the sense of proof unless I can somehow read your mind and view your memories which I cannot do at this current time.
Quote:Yes, many people do unto others as they would want done to them, but that's called 'Empathy'. There's nothing spiritual about empathy. It appears that humans didn't have a whole lot of empathy a few thousand years ago. But, for the sake of sustaining the speices, empathy started to flourish.
And the Christian belief is that empathy is something gifted to us by God.
-_- Rather than making Adam and Eve with very strong empathy he choses to give humanity a higher dose of it at a later time... ? Don't tell me he works in mysterious ways. If god decided to give humanity doses of empathy later on then I can't quite figure out why he didn't make Eve without curiosity or a hunger for power, because then she never would have wanted the apple and the whole sin thing wouldn't be a problem. Ridiculous to me, mysteriously enlightening to you.
Quote:If you construct some one without empathy you have a psychopath. A psychopath doesn't have remorse for doing bad things. Poetically speaking, his heart tells him to kill people and he likes that.
I couter that I do not, personally, believe in such people. Not as 'people', at least.
Then I counter that you're living in a dream world. These are people. They were created by sperm and an egg, were born as a human baby and then grew up with an urge to kill people.
Quote:It's not like I'm making up hypothetical stuff. This people are real. Rapists usually enjoy raping, serial killers often enjoy killing and kleptomaniacs enjoy stealing.
Yes, but look at the usual mental state of such people; they are compulsive, emotionally unhealthy, and generally unwell in the head. This is very telling of the affect such behavior has on the human psyche.
I'm not saying that these people's state of minds are healthy, but I don't think 'unhealthy' = 'evil'. Plus, I don't think people that partake in irregular pleasures or socially unaccepted activities are necessarily unhealthy. Mental health is still a grey area as far as human understanding goes. Until we know more about how the brain operates we can't always say for certain what activities and behaviors are damaging to the psyche. But, I'll repeat that I do not find that unhealthy psyche = evil.
Quote:Who am I to tell these people that they're on the path to moral decay when they've either been conditioned or born with unorthodox desires?
Because something tells you inside that what they are doing is 'wrong', right? That's the best possible reason I can think of for locking them away. You see the affect their behavior has on themselves and others, ad you want to help them put an end to their behavior by feeling better or in some way putting a stop to it.
I see that in some cases their behavior is corrupting both to themselves and others. but, I still don't think of it as morally, divinely or spiritually wrong/evil. My empathy incites pity in me for the people who suffer. But, since I do not possess any concept of self-righteousness I am not inclined to think, 'Evil sinners will be cast into the fiery depths of hell for their wrongful deeds.'
Quote:I don't even understand how these people could exist if the biblical god was real. Course, I'm not saying we shouldn't lock these people up. They're infringing on people's happiness and the majority of people don't want killers and rapists running around. Regardless, as far as I'm concerned these people are proof that there's no such thing as 'inner morality' or a 'core knowledge of right and wrong'. These people have a completely different take on ethics all together.
And again; look at the affect their life-styles has on their state of mind and on other's well-being, as well. People react to these things because of the inner morality and core knowledge of right and wrong. At least, that is my belief.
No, people react to these things because of empathy and self-defense which I do not believe to be gifts from god, because they would be pointless gifts when he could've simply created us without the capacity to inflict suffering on one another.
Come my brethren and feast upon one another! (S)He who triumps and has eaten us all will be blessed with the knowledge of all those with whom (s)he has consumed!
May 16, 2010 at 8:16 pm (This post was last modified: May 16, 2010 at 9:29 pm by tackattack.)
John you're blending all your quotes together and it looks like you're rebutting yourself... It is quite confusing. Perhaps if you used a quote tag that referenced a particular person you'd do a little betteror even a hide tag.
(May 16, 2010 at 1:02 pm)John_S3V Wrote:
John_S3V Wrote:As soon as you start saying that the bible may be wrong about some things you have to admit that based on the lack of evidence to support pretty well anything in the bible that it could very well be wrong about everything.
Watson Wrote:It is, in fact, wrong about some things. But from a Christian's perspective, this is just human falliability. Observing God in the real world reveals which of the Bible's doctrines are right and which are wrong.
You seem to feel that you have the authority to observe when and where god shows up in the real world and can then decide which biblical teachings are correct based on your own judgement. Bravo, you're no different than any other human trying to discern right from wrong. And you know what, I don't blame you a bit. I tried discerning right from wrong, without the bible of course, for a long time and it's actually quite difficult and in my opinion impossible. I hope one day you'll realize though that right and wrong is subjective and that there is no god to back up what you personally believe.
Perhaps, if you reach that point, you'll recognize that all humans are seeking out happiness and that no man is truly wrong nor evil. There are simply times when men infringe on your happiness in the pursuit of their own and times wen men either compliment or have no effect on the pursuit of your happiness when in pursuit of their own. And, as everybody knows, you can't make everybody happy. Therefore, at times, you yourself have infringed on people's happiness in pursuit of your own. That's likely happened many times on this forum. It doesn't make you a bad person, it simply makes you human like the rest of us. Of course, life is much more satisfying once you surround yourself with people that compliment your pursuit of happiness. But, life doesn't always work out idealistically.
Firstly, I'm only commenting on your patronizing tone because I initially thought it was towards me. Since you also assume to speak for people, this should probably be what you should change that first paragraph to say in my case: I do not presume to have any authority over God in any way. delete the bit about you finding it impossible to determine your own morals and yet they are subjective Yes I am human, and I seek happiness just as much as the next man. So let me get this straight, you don't believe a child molesting, rapist murderer is wrong or is it you don't consider his acts evil?
(May 16, 2010 at 1:02 pm)John_S3V Wrote:
The god you worship is not the god written about in the bible, because you do not believe that the god written about in the bible is the god who told people to stone their rebellious sons. The god that the bible is written about is not your god. Your god consists of elements from the bible's god, YHWH that were selected by you which makes your god a subjective, personal god.
This is also an emphatically untrue statement, but since you're presuming to tell me which God I worship as well I guess I'll just switch my religous status to whatever John tells me. The Bible is a tool where men have written down their ideas about what they percieve as God in their lives and their lives in general. The pre Christian believers probably saw God the way you do. Then, according to the Bible, Jesus came and showed us a better understanding of who God is. Since then Science has also helped to give us an idea of what old-school biblical signs weren't really God's hand. If anyone is cherry picking here it's you for completely ignoring the new testament teachings of Jesus and only seeing the OT God. The OT God and the NT God are the same God too, btw. If you and I both see a cube and from behind you see it as red, but in front I see it as blue, regardless of who's right we're both looing at the same cube.
I'm not sure if any of the rest was a response to me, so I'll leave it, it's quite confusing.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Yes I am human, and I seek happiness just as much as the next man. So let me get this straight, you don't believe a child molesting, rapist murderer is wrong or is it you don't consider his acts evil? 
