Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause?

[Mudhammam]

See it simply:

By the Geneva conventions, using infrastructure for military use makes it a legitimate target.

1. Hamas uses schools, residential neighbourhoods and hospitals for military targets, thus endangering civilians inside.

Maybe Hamas should gather in a stadium and declare to the IDF, "Hey, we're right here. Come and bomb us." Or perhaps they should store their weapons on the moon? What the fuck do you think happens in war, when the resistance must come from a population that has very little power or control of their own regions?

2. Every ceasefire (which means you stop firing at the enemy -- only that) has been met with Hamas using it to position more Qassam rockets.

Factually incorrect. See the article I linked in my previous post. Or here, I'll save you time:

Israel claims that its current and past wars against the Palestinian population in Gaza have been in response to rocket fire. Empirical evidence from 2008, 2012 and 2014 refute that claim. First, according to Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the greatest reduction of rocket fire came through diplomatic rather than military means. This chart demonstrates the correlation between Israel's military attacks upon the Gaza Strip and Hamas militant activity. Hamas rocket fire increases in response to Israeli military attacks and decreases in direct correlation to them. Cease-fires have brought the greatest security to the region.

During the four months of the Egyptian-negotiated cease-fire in 2008, Palestinian militants reduced the number of rockets to zero or single digits from the Gaza Strip. Despite this relative security and calm, Israel broke the cease-fire to begin the notorious aerial and ground offensive that killed 1,400 Palestinians in twenty-two days. In November 2012, Israel's extrajudicial assassination of Ahmad Jabari, the chief of Hamas's military wing in Gaza, while he was reviewing terms for a diplomatic solution, again broke the cease-fire that precipitated the eight-day aerial offensive that killed 132 Palestinians.

Immediately preceding Israel's most recent operation, Hamas rocket and mortar attacks did not threaten Israel. Israel deliberately provoked this war with Hamas. Without producing a shred of evidence, it accused the political faction of kidnapping and murdering three settlers near Hebron. Four weeks and almost 700 lives later, Israel has yet to produce any evidence demonstrating Hamas's involvement. During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank, Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011. It's these Israeli provocations that precipitated the Hamas rocket fire to which Israel claims left it with no choice but a gruesome military operation.

3. Hamas has no military bargaining power.

If they do not surrender, then they are solely responsible for the death of Gazans.

So it's Hamas' fault that Israel is lodging missiles and gunfire at houses, schools, and hospitals?

Frankly, I never liked the Israelis, but Hamas continually picks a fight with a stronger bully and then hides behind/sets up civilians for the slaughter.

To hell with Gaza -- pound them until they unconditionally surrender or kill them all.

There is no middle ground any more as it has gone on too long.

Genocide is the answer? You're fucking disgusting.

[Autumnlicious]

By the Geneva conventions, using infrastructure for military use makes it a legitimate target.

Maybe Hamas should gather in a stadium and declare to the IDF, "Hey, we're right here. Come and bomb us." Or perhaps they should store their weapons on the moon? What the fuck do you think happens in war, when the resistance must come from a population that has very little power or control of their own regions?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Hamas use of civilian infrastructure is the fault of Hamas.

Stop trying to blame the Israeli's for Hamas' actions. The Israelis have their own faults without you disingenously adding to them.

2. Every ceasefire (which means you stop firing at the enemy -- only that) has been met with Hamas using it to position more Qassam rockets.

Factually incorrect. See the article I linked in my previous post. Or here, I'll save you time:

Hamas rocket fire increases in response to Israeli military attacks and decreases in direct correlation to them. Cease-fires have brought the greatest security to the region.

Notice how they don't say "stopped rocket fire"?

That's because they are ALWAYS FUCKING FIRING ROCKETS.

The only difference is intensity. An intensity that does not seem to hit zero for any significant body of time.

Any number of rockets is a declaration of war -- so you're stupidly wrong.

And I'll pay my own money to have you live under the red zone under the condition that you make no use of Israeli warnings, shelter or Iron Dome.

Let's see how much you're willing to stand for your beliefs when you are under fire.

3. Hamas has no military bargaining power.

If they do not surrender, then they are solely responsible for the death of Gazans.

So it's Hamas' fault that Israel is lodging missiles and gunfire at houses, schools, and hospitals?

Article 52, Protocol 1:
"In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage."

Hamas stores and uses civilian infrastructure for launching military action (i.e. contribution to military action).

Thus they are legitimate military targets.

Are you retarded, or just ideologically blind?

Frankly, I never liked the Israelis, but Hamas continually picks a fight with a stronger bully and then hides behind/sets up civilians for the slaughter.

To hell with Gaza -- pound them until they unconditionally surrender or kill them all.

There is no middle ground any more as it has gone on too long.

Genocide is the answer? You're fucking disgusting.

Are you claiming that Palestinian == Hamas?

Because if you are, your cries of genocide are disingenous and disgusting.

You're the ball of shit. Not me.

Did you cry salty tears when Imperial Japan refused to surrender until two of their cities were obliterated in a second?

Did you blame the big bully United States for demanding the Imperial Japanese government surrender unconditionally or face utter destruction?

Please, tell us your moral high ground...

[Cato]

I'm not trying to downplay Hamas putting Palastinians in the crossfire, but the cry of genocide is pure melodrama.

[Napoléon]

Genocide is the answer? You're fucking disgusting.

Yeah, I'd like to echo this. This mentality is why so many countries are being torn apart by war in the first place. In my mind, Israel has responded with completely disproportionate force. I'm not saying they shouldn't defend themselves, but how anyone can look at the death tolls and not think they're disproportionate is beyond me. Yes, Hamas is prodding the bigger kid, but this analogy doesn't really hold up when you consider that Hamas is using innocents as shields. IMHO Israel has the responsibility to not target fucking UN schools and massacre over a 1000 people. Frankly the attitude of 'kill them all' is abhorrent. This is like if you had a hostage situation with say, a hundred innocent people in a room, with terrorists holding guns to their heads. Terrorists inside the room are shooting at the cops who've set up outside. Because the cops have failed to negotiate they simply decide to carpet bomb the entire building. "These terrorists are picking a fight with a stronger bully, fuck 'em, let's just kill all the innocent people along with the terrorists". Basically the same logic, and frankly I think this is absurd.

---

Did you cry salty tears when Imperial Japan refused to surrender until two of their cities were obliterated in a second?

Did you blame the big bully United States for demanding the Imperial Japanese government surrender unconditionally or face utter destruction?

Please, tell us your moral high ground...

This is exactly the solution you're advocating. Japan bombs Pearl Harbour, fuck this shit, let's nuke them.

You would of thought the world would have learned by now.

---

I'm not trying to downplay Hamas putting Palastinians in the crossfire, but the cry of genocide is pure melodrama.

Genocide, perhaps not, but they are disproportionately massacring innocent children.

[Autumnlicious]

Human shields are illegal for the reason that they use innocents as an armour against others. While committing violence.

Gazan civilians are human shields by Hamas's own hands. Not Israeli hands. Hamas's hands. They corral and force civilians near legitimate military targets.

Mainly to drum up sympathy from idiots like...

Your entire strategy effectively allows free use of human shields without consequence.

What a wonderful world you must live in, where all the men willing to commit murder are nice enough not to involve innocents.

I keep citing the Geneva Conventions. Conventions agreed upon for war time. You know -- when diplomacy has broken down and states are murdering as many from the opposing side.

What can you cite?

This is exactly the solution you're advocating. Japan bombs Pearl Harbour, fuck this shit, let's nuke them.

You would of thought the world would have learned by now

This is why you have no respect from me in this discussion.

The Pacific Theater was inordinately bloody.

The invasion for forcing a surrender in mainland Japan (so they could not build up and continue waging war) was projected to have incredibly high numbers of casualties and fatalities.

The nuclear strikes clearly illustrated "Surrender or be destroyed".

It worked. Had it not, there wouldn't be a Japan anymore.

Guess who made the decision that living is better than death? The Japanese.

Genocide, perhaps not, but they are disproportionately massacring innocent children.

Yet another reason why you engender no respect. Overly dramatic.

Who is placing those children next to rockets? Hamas.

No rockets near/in schools == no shells hitting schools.

[Napoléon]

Human shields are illegal for the reason that they use innocents as an armour against others. While committing violence.

Gazan civilians are human shields by Hamas's own hands. Not Israeli hands. Hamas's hands. They corral and force civilians near legitimate military targets.

Thanks for editing out that needless insult...

As for this, I don't dispute what you're saying.

Mainly to drum up sympathy from idiots like...

Again, I don't dispute they know what they're doing. Just seems that Israel should have the responsibility to try and not deliberately aim at UN schools. Maybe that isn't possible in Gaza, I don't know.

Your entire strategy effectively allows free use of human shields without consequence.

What a wonderful world you must live in, where all the men willing to commit murder are nice enough not to involve innocents.

I'd like to live in a world where a power the size of Israel could show a bit more constraint when it comes to killing over a thousand civilians and perhaps do a bit more to not escalate this conflict. It seems to me that they are far too quick to fire back when Hamas launches rockets.

I keep citing the Geneva Conventions. Conventions agreed upon for war time. You know -- when diplomacy has broken down and states are murdering as many from the opposing side.

Bolded the exact point you seem to obviously miss. The death tolls are disproportionate. The rocket systems that Israel has have reduced their amount of casualties, yes, but to me this doesn't excuse the kind of disproportionate killing being done.

This is why you have no respect from me in this discussion.

The Pacific Theater was inordinately bloody.

The invasion for forcing a surrender in mainland Japan (so they could not build up and continue waging war) was projected to have incredibly high numbers of casualties and fatalities.

The nuclear strikes clearly illustrated "Surrender or be destroyed".

It worked. Had it not, there wouldn't be a Japan anymore.

Guess who made the decision that living is better than death? The Japanese.

To be honest World War 2 is an entirely different circumstance to this, and it's my bad for bringing it up.

---

Who is placing those children next to rockets? Hamas.

Tell me, where the fuck are they supposed to go? I'm guessing Israel are sheltering any of these Palestinians that don't want to get bombed? Right?

*Edit*

One more thing, you might want to look at this: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/american-t...stine.html

I'd be interested particularly in how you respond to the Iron Dome not being as effective as you say it is and also the fact that Israel can choose their targets. Also the fact that Gaza is an "open-air prison".

[Lemonvariable72]

Do tell me, how do you show restraint when the enemy, dressed as civilians, sets up operations on the roof of a school to fire rockets into residential neighborhood?

[Napoléon]

Do tell me, how do you show restraint when the enemy, dressed as civilians, sets up operations on the roof of a school to fire rockets into residential neighborhood?

Don't fire at the school? Answer me this, how many Israeli civilians have been killed as a direct result of Hamas's rockets, do you know?

[Lemonvariable72]

Not nearly as many as there have been Palestinians. You say don't fire at the school right? Well they are firing at your schools, do you wait until they kill your children? All the while you get to look weak, and because they think your weak they try harder to kill you.

[Napoléon]

Not nearly as many as there have been Palestinians.

How many? Do you not know?

You say don't fire at the school right? Well they are firing at your schools, do you wait until they kill your children? All the while you get to look weak, and because they think your weak they try harder to kill you.

This is exactly the kind of thought process which makes people have sympathy for Israel. As though they are 'under attack' on anywhere near the scale as what the Palestinians are. As though Hamas and Israel are two powers on a comparable level. What Israeli schools have been bombed by Hamas in this conflict? I must have missed that news story.

This conflict has nothing to do with looking weak, if you think that then you know even less than me about it.


On another note, I just found a rather interesting article (user written article) on the subject:
http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Palestine...g-20140714

I know Moros would berate me because I'm sitting here not coming up with any solutions. He's berated me for that in the past. Truth is, I don't know what would stop this conflict and indeed if there is even a solution to it. The article I quoted seems to reflect my thoughts on the matter though, and gives a solution that I find to be better than what is going on right now. Perhaps this solution is too idealistic but I do think both sides are in the wrong, however the crucial point that I can see, is that it's Israel who needs to be doing more. It's Israel that should stop the bombing, it's Israel who should make more of an attempt to solve the current oppression that is going on in Palestine. They are the ones who bear more responsibility from what I can see. The barbaric and mindless attitude of "kill them all" that Moros expressed earlier, is still, fucking disgusting IMHO.


With that, I'ma shut up. Probably derailed this thread a fair bit and arguing about any of this is futile.