Is Rape Natural? Part 2, 2014 Edition

[Losty]

many feel empathy for the pain of the other victim.

I think most rapists are just normal people who lack self control. For the most part I have agreed with the things you have said in this thread. I cannot agree with this. There is only one victim. A rapist is not a victim. A drunk driver is not a victim. They might not be monsters (or at least not most of them), but they are not victims.

[Napoléon]

Maybe they're a victim in a different kind of way?

[Diablo]

Maybe they're a victim in a different kind of way?

I'm not sure what you mean.

It strikes me that rapists may be the same kind of person that you see in many walks of life: totally ruthless, self-centred, not immoral but rather amoral, just prepared to take whatever they want.

You certainly see it in sport where people will take drugs, cheat, deliberately injure opponents. You see it in business a lot too, where people will lie, cheat and steal to get what they want.

Maybe being willing to rape is the same thing, a ruthless intent to take what they want without caring about the victim. You see it another way in the movie industry where young actresses are pressured into having sex with fat old men in exchange for a role. That's rape too, in a way, or at least close.

There are plenty of those people around, for sure.

[Nine]

Maybe they're a victim in a different kind of way?

Perhaps in a sense but I think its a disservice to the person who has actually been victimized.

I think there is value to empathizing even with people who have done awful things if only for the fact that it can help us understand why they do the things they do. I don't think its at all necessary to call them victims.

[Losty]

Maybe they're a victim in a different kind of way?

Maybe, I don't think so. You could argue that being a product of the environment they grew up in makes them a victim I guess. You could argue that being wired a certain way makes them a victim. I don't think so though. I think at best it makes the weak willed and lacking in self control. Does it mean I have no sympathy for a rapist? Depends on the circumstances I suppose, but I could never see a rapist as a victim.

[Napoléon]

Just playing Devil's advocate here, I agree with what you guys are saying, but I'm probably going down a rabbit hole nonetheless...

Losty brings up something that I find interesting.

Is it not true we are for the most part simply a product of our environments? That our behaviours are learned from exterior influences? If so, say you have a rapist who has been brought up in a terrible environment, an environment of rape, maybe even killing. They didn't choose to be born into such an environment but for whatever reason that's all they know. In such a circumstance, how much self control can this person really have, if they do not even know what self control is? Is it their fault that they are the way they are? Do they have a choice or is that choice removed from them due to their environment?

In reality I doubt it's possible to be brought up in such extreme circumstances and never be exposed to any positive influence, so I doubt such a person would ever exist. But, the question still intrigues me, is it not fair to also call the person in this instance a victim? A victim of their environment maybe?

On a similar note, what about people with mental health problems? People who again, just don't even know what control is? Perhaps they have an entirely different perception of reality.

I can see an argument for calling people in these circumstances victims too, and I don't think it necessarily diminishes the person who's been raped by them, nor do I think it means you have to condone a rapist's actions, just because you could see them as a victim in a different kind of way.

[Losty]

Ok here's the thing, I'm not good at making a guess on how I would feel about circumstances that I don't think are possible.
I have compassion for people who are raised in bad environments, but everyone is exposed to some sort of positive environment. Yes, it sucks that people are raised seeing this kind of thing as okay. I see it the same as child abuse. You can lean on your past and use it as an excuse up to a certain point, but the moment you harm a child you are no longer a victim. Maybe I am too emotional about it, it's really a difficult subject to not be emotional about.
Even with someone with mental health problems, maybe they can't be blamed if their condition is so severe that they don't realize what they're doing, but victims? I just cannot see it that way.

[Dystopia]

Ok here's the thing, I'm not good at making a guess on how I would feel about circumstances that I don't think are possible.
I have compassion for people who are raised in bad environments, but everyone is exposed to some sort of positive environment. Yes, it sucks that people are raised seeing this kind of thing as okay. I see it the same as child abuse. You can lean on your past and use it as an excuse up to a certain point, but the moment you harm a child you are no longer a victim. Maybe I am too emotional about it, it's really a difficult subject to not be emotional about.
Even with someone with mental health problems, maybe they can't be blamed if their condition is so severe that they don't realize what they're doing, but victims? I just cannot see it that way.

If they have a serious enough mental problem they won't go to jail, mental facilities are the way to go, but only if the condition completely stops freedom of decision and to evaluate the legality of conducts.

Let's say a kleptomaniac, he can't be guilty of patrimonial crimes, so he/she'll be sent to a mental appointment to surpass the problem. If a kleptomaniac murders someone, then he can already be guilty

[bennyboy]

You're spending way too much time in Alice's fantasy Wonderland where everything is foggy and distorted. In the real world there's no gray area as you suppose. There's a clear distintion between black and white and good and evil. Rapists are evil people who have abandoned self control over their urges to commit sexual violence on hapless and unsuspecting victims. This is more of the same idiotic bullshit where there's empathy for the rapist and the victims are ignored.

Black and white? The hell you say.

Let's say someone is neglected by his mother, beaten by his father, and molested by his uncle. He sits in a house of God every Sunday, and finally turns to God for relief, asking a priest to help him purify himself, confessing all that's happened to him. The priest takes him to a back room, tells him he needs holy water sprinkled all over his naked body, and asks him if he's ever masturbated.

So he turns to women. He desperately wants to be accepted by someone, but he's so socially dysfunctional by now that he doesn't understand why every woman finds him creepy. They call him "weirdo" or "freak," and publicly mock his attempts to make a connection with another human being.

This guy now sees that there is nobody in society who will not rob him of his dignity and power. Because he's now a monster, nobody will extend respect or compassion to him. But, he realizes, there is in fact one simple way in which he can prove he has some power over others. He intends to prove that, in some way, he matters. So he follows a girl out of a bar, accosts her in a poorly lit alley, and thinks, "Ignore me now, bitch!"


To say this guy is not a victim is to throw away all understanding of causality. He's been a victim all his life, and all the misery that's been heaped on him finally manifests as an evil act. I wouldn't condone it, and if he raped my daughter, I would attack him and possibly kill him. But certainly to say he's just an evil fuck who's chosen to do an evil thing is too simplistic a view.

[Violet]

I've only just joined, and I don't want to disrail this discussion, but there is the issue of prison rape (apologies if discussed before). In this case one party wants to get his jollies, while also doing the power/violence bit, at the expense of the other, by using threats or actual violence. Neither would identify as gay, btw, and would be straight outside. This could be seen as natural given the circumstances since abstinence is unusual normally.

Have you ever been hungry... really hungry... starving... and all you have is Instamash?

Yeah, I'd eat it too. Not to say that it doesn't happen for those other reasons... but the more of those types I listed earlier that are in the same place at the same time... the more likely the conclusion of 'rape' will be.

I read somewhere that if you include the estimated number of such situations in the statistics, then more men than women are raped everyday in the US, on account of its large prison population. I don't know if that's true. I can't imagine the effect on the victim.

It's not true, but what does it matter? It sucks.